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Tom Crean's Progression
Posted on 3/11/21 at 8:38 am
Posted on 3/11/21 at 8:38 am
I have seen for 2 years now people pissed at the direction of our basketball program under crean, and am always confused by it. First let's just look at the black and white raw data:
Year 1
11-21 (34%), 2-16 SEC, 13th in league
Year 2
16-16 (50%), 5-13 SEC (plus 1 in SECT), 13th in league
Year 3
14-11 (56%), 7-11 SEC, 10th in league
It's evident that we are improving every season. I'm curious what some of you expect? Unfortuantley we aren't a team that's going to make the tourney every year so if that's waht you're expecting right NOW, then you're just going to go through life disappointed. I think any UGA basketball fan that has followed the program a while should first and foremost expect improvement, and in this new regime with a fresh start that's exactly what we're getting.
Let's also point out that this has been Crean's track record at every stop. He had 2 average years at Marquette, then 2 great years (yes, dwayne wade was on the roster these 2 years), 2 average years again, then 3 really good years winning at least 20 games and making the tourney (without dwayne wade). At Indiana he had 3 terrible years before making back to back sweet 16s. Followed by a down year, then 3 more good years. He was also plagued with start injruies at Indiana but still did a damn good job there.
Our recruiting has improved from under Fox. Our offense and style of play has improved 10 fold. Our ability to break a press and throw the ball inbounds has improved exponentially. Our ticket sales and fan support has drastically improved. Yet I still see people wanting to fire him after 3 years? It just doens't make any sense to me. In football you always give a coach enough time to change the culture and overhaul the roster before you really grade him. The roster is now Crean's but you've gotta realize that unlike most football regime changes Crean was starting from scratch. In Fox's last season, the top 8 minute-getters in the season opener were in order: Yante Maten, Turtle Jackson, Rayshaun Hammonds, Etorian Wilridge, Teshaun Hightower, Tyree Crump, Mike Edwards, and Juwan Parker. Some good in there but a lot of meh. It takes time to show recruits you can win and we are having to overcome a decade of malaise under Fox. Guys like Bruce Pearl have shown, although I'm sure there's some extra with a guy like him, that you can take a losing program, get some wins under your belt, and get recruits interested. If we fire crean anytime soon we're just going to be starting right back over from scratch which si the last thing we need right now.
Year 1
11-21 (34%), 2-16 SEC, 13th in league
Year 2
16-16 (50%), 5-13 SEC (plus 1 in SECT), 13th in league
Year 3
14-11 (56%), 7-11 SEC, 10th in league
It's evident that we are improving every season. I'm curious what some of you expect? Unfortuantley we aren't a team that's going to make the tourney every year so if that's waht you're expecting right NOW, then you're just going to go through life disappointed. I think any UGA basketball fan that has followed the program a while should first and foremost expect improvement, and in this new regime with a fresh start that's exactly what we're getting.
Let's also point out that this has been Crean's track record at every stop. He had 2 average years at Marquette, then 2 great years (yes, dwayne wade was on the roster these 2 years), 2 average years again, then 3 really good years winning at least 20 games and making the tourney (without dwayne wade). At Indiana he had 3 terrible years before making back to back sweet 16s. Followed by a down year, then 3 more good years. He was also plagued with start injruies at Indiana but still did a damn good job there.
Our recruiting has improved from under Fox. Our offense and style of play has improved 10 fold. Our ability to break a press and throw the ball inbounds has improved exponentially. Our ticket sales and fan support has drastically improved. Yet I still see people wanting to fire him after 3 years? It just doens't make any sense to me. In football you always give a coach enough time to change the culture and overhaul the roster before you really grade him. The roster is now Crean's but you've gotta realize that unlike most football regime changes Crean was starting from scratch. In Fox's last season, the top 8 minute-getters in the season opener were in order: Yante Maten, Turtle Jackson, Rayshaun Hammonds, Etorian Wilridge, Teshaun Hightower, Tyree Crump, Mike Edwards, and Juwan Parker. Some good in there but a lot of meh. It takes time to show recruits you can win and we are having to overcome a decade of malaise under Fox. Guys like Bruce Pearl have shown, although I'm sure there's some extra with a guy like him, that you can take a losing program, get some wins under your belt, and get recruits interested. If we fire crean anytime soon we're just going to be starting right back over from scratch which si the last thing we need right now.
8
Posted on 3/11/21 at 8:42 am to WG_Dawg
Maybe kentucky fires calipari and we pick him up. It is going to take a proven legend for us toever matter
Posted on 3/11/21 at 8:49 am to lewis and herschel
quote:
It is going to take a proven legend for us toever matter
That's simply not true. How many great teams out there now went from bad to great by hiring a legend? Most of the big schools became great by hiring a good coach that stayed there a while. Football schools like UF, OSU, Texas, FSU, Tennessee, etc didn't go out and hire John Wooden they just hired really good coaches that built the program, which is what we need.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 8:59 am to WG_Dawg
I think the frustration boils down to one thing. People expected us to take a giant leap forward with the Anthony Edwards signing. When he and that season were a disappointment, people tuned out.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 9:30 am to RedPants
When I was in school I went to bb games because the other teams sometimes had good players worth watching. A win by us was a bonus.
I missed seeing Pete Maravich play by a year.
I missed seeing Pete Maravich play by a year.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 9:44 am to AlaCowboy
quote:
When I was in school I went to bb games because the other teams sometimes had good players worth watching.
When I was in we'd go see the gymdogs...for better reasons
Posted on 3/11/21 at 10:13 am to WG_Dawg
I expected more having a lottery pick at UGA for 1 year, just saying.
That being said, my expectations for UGA basketball are at an all time low right now. Hopefully Crean can continue to turn the program around. I am still for giving him more time
That being said, my expectations for UGA basketball are at an all time low right now. Hopefully Crean can continue to turn the program around. I am still for giving him more time
Posted on 3/11/21 at 11:00 am to WG_Dawg
I've been back and forth with this and I tend to agree with your assessment. A lot of "fire him" mostly comes from disappointing, humiliating, defeats. That's really the only thing that has made me so sour towards him.
I agree that he is improving record wise. I also know that we have 3 solid core guys that we probably haven't had in quite some time. We've always had one maybe two but not three. You'd almost have to go back to the Harrick years. The SEC is getting better. UK will be back. Alabama will not be going anywhere as long as Oats is there. LSU is kinda up and down but can erupt at any moment. Same applies for Arkansas and maybe UF/MIZZOU. SC owns us for some weird reason too.
There's only SO MANY NCAA Tourney spots... so... UGA needs to get A LOT better.
I've followed the program for many years and I do not expect NCAA Tournament every year or bust. I do, however, expect better recruitment and player development given his background. There's still a lot to prove imo.
I agree that he is improving record wise. I also know that we have 3 solid core guys that we probably haven't had in quite some time. We've always had one maybe two but not three. You'd almost have to go back to the Harrick years. The SEC is getting better. UK will be back. Alabama will not be going anywhere as long as Oats is there. LSU is kinda up and down but can erupt at any moment. Same applies for Arkansas and maybe UF/MIZZOU. SC owns us for some weird reason too.
There's only SO MANY NCAA Tourney spots... so... UGA needs to get A LOT better.
I've followed the program for many years and I do not expect NCAA Tournament every year or bust. I do, however, expect better recruitment and player development given his background. There's still a lot to prove imo.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 11:05 am to Kneehigh
On a side note... If UGA happens to beat Mizzou tonight... will that not be enough to play in the NIT? We have had some good wins this year and we will still have a winning record.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 11:12 am to IT_Dawg
quote:
I expected more having a lottery pick at UGA for 1 year, just saying.
A few other recent #1 draft picks:
Deandre Ayton (bought and paid for to a basketball school): lost in 1st round of the tourney to a 13 seed.
Markelle Fultz: finished 9-22 and 2-16 in conference
Ben Simmons: 19-14 and no postseason
UGA is a worse basketball school than any of those. Simply having a top pick doesn't mean we're automatically making the sweet 16. Since crean got here all I've mainly wanted to see is constant improvement which we've done every single year.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 11:41 am to WG_Dawg
The losses and inconsistent play bother me the most
Posted on 3/11/21 at 11:49 am to WG_Dawg
Harrick was the last Coach that had us truly competitive and he was an old. Legendary coach.
None of the rest have panned out.
None of the rest have panned out.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 1:53 pm to WG_Dawg
Thee have been a few times this year that Georgia looked like a basketball program on the rise. Georgia, with no tradition and no history, has much more of an uphill battle to become relevant than some proud program that has fallen from grace that is trying to get back.
I can remember when Florida sucked at basketball as bad as Georgia did. Hope is always around the corner. Leave Crean alone and let him coach.
I can remember when Florida sucked at basketball as bad as Georgia did. Hope is always around the corner. Leave Crean alone and let him coach.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 3:54 pm to WG_Dawg
If we had been an SEC bottom feeder under Fox, I’d be thrilled with Crean’s results. So far, it’s taken 3 years for him to get to a level that Fox was consistently at or above. When you make a coaching change, you do so to improve on the previous regime, not slowly build back to where you started.
It’s not unreasonable to be disappointed with where we are in Crean’s 3rd year based on that rationale. I understand what our program has been historically, and I don’t expect Rome to be built in a day, but when I move on from one coach, I expect the next coach to do better, even if only marginally.
It’s not unreasonable to be disappointed with where we are in Crean’s 3rd year based on that rationale. I understand what our program has been historically, and I don’t expect Rome to be built in a day, but when I move on from one coach, I expect the next coach to do better, even if only marginally.
Posted on 3/11/21 at 3:59 pm to WG_Dawg
My concerns with Crean are lack of improvement in areas of huge deficiency that lead to games left on the table. We have been sloppy with the ball since he arrived. It hasn't improved really at all. It reminds me so much of Fox's complete inability to dial up an inbounds play for example...
By no means do I think we should be an elite team in year 3 under Crean, but the roster doesn't feel like it's "getting there" where I can expect a break out season in the next 2 years, and not making it to the tournament is a pretty big knock against future roster improvements as well.
I don't know that firing him fixes anything, because I'm not sure there's a slam dunk hire that comes in and does better, but I do think he should feel some pretty serious pressure to perform at this point. Year 4, your roster is 100% your own... go get on the bubble at a minimum and pull an NIT seed or something to show that you are heading the right direction.
By no means do I think we should be an elite team in year 3 under Crean, but the roster doesn't feel like it's "getting there" where I can expect a break out season in the next 2 years, and not making it to the tournament is a pretty big knock against future roster improvements as well.
I don't know that firing him fixes anything, because I'm not sure there's a slam dunk hire that comes in and does better, but I do think he should feel some pretty serious pressure to perform at this point. Year 4, your roster is 100% your own... go get on the bubble at a minimum and pull an NIT seed or something to show that you are heading the right direction.
Posted on 3/12/21 at 10:13 am to fibonaccisquared
Defensively, this team gets torn apart damn near every time they step on the floor. I know this was not a great situation he stepped into, but it seems like the roster should be better than fighting for an NIT spot in his third year.
My bigger concern is that Crean has been coasting off of Dwyane Wade carrying him to a Final Four way back in 2003. Even his best team at Indiana, which was a #1 seed and one of the two co-favorites to win that tournament (along with Louisville, who ended up winning it), got absolutely smoked by Syracuse in the Sweet 16 back in 2013.
The good news is that his first three Indiana teams were terrible before making a huge leap and winning 27 games in his fourth year. His fourth year at Marquette was the 2003 Final Four appearance. If there isn't a sign of life next year, he isn't the guy.
My bigger concern is that Crean has been coasting off of Dwyane Wade carrying him to a Final Four way back in 2003. Even his best team at Indiana, which was a #1 seed and one of the two co-favorites to win that tournament (along with Louisville, who ended up winning it), got absolutely smoked by Syracuse in the Sweet 16 back in 2013.
The good news is that his first three Indiana teams were terrible before making a huge leap and winning 27 games in his fourth year. His fourth year at Marquette was the 2003 Final Four appearance. If there isn't a sign of life next year, he isn't the guy.
Posted on 3/12/21 at 1:11 pm to bunkerhill
quote:
Hope is always around the corner.
Posted on 3/12/21 at 3:19 pm to VADawg
quote:
Defensively, this team gets torn apart damn near every time they step on the floor. I know this was not a great situation he stepped into, but it seems like the roster should be better than fighting for an NIT spot in his third year.
Agreed, though occasionally that is one area of the team that seems to kind of show up, despite the size disadvantage that the roster is giving up. When it's bad, it's atrocious, but there have been times when the defense looks passable.
quote:
The good news is that his first three Indiana teams were terrible before making a huge leap and winning 27 games in his fourth year. His fourth year at Marquette was the 2003 Final Four appearance. If there isn't a sign of life next year, he isn't the guy.
Sadly, kind of referencing back to what I just mentioned, we give up huge size advantages to most rosters now, but fail to capitalize on the "speed advantage" that should give us due to poor attention to detail on our possessions (see total turnovers and I believe turnover margin near the bottom of all NCAA teams every year under Crean). We don't look like a team laden with senior leadership and competitive differentiators going into 21-22. We look like we're still trying to find an identity. I'll be here if I'm wrong, but color me shocked beyond all recognition if we have some kind of explosive output next season and resemble either of his year 4 teams at Indiana or Marquette (just in terms of growth, not how far they make it in the tourney, since that would require miracle work).
Posted on 3/12/21 at 5:57 pm to WG_Dawg
i dont have a super strong opinion either way on crean except that i definitely believe he should get another year. and he will so no issue there.
there has been decent progression under him over the last 3 years, which is a positive i guess? a huge negative would be that it's now taken him 3 years to get back to basically exactly where we already were under fox (and slightly worse in reality).
the core of sahvir, KD, and toumani for next year should theoretically be quite strong (for us at least). no excuses IMO. it's time to make the tournament.
there has been decent progression under him over the last 3 years, which is a positive i guess? a huge negative would be that it's now taken him 3 years to get back to basically exactly where we already were under fox (and slightly worse in reality).
the core of sahvir, KD, and toumani for next year should theoretically be quite strong (for us at least). no excuses IMO. it's time to make the tournament.
Posted on 3/12/21 at 7:08 pm to rockchlkjayhku11
I posted this on the other thread, and this is clearly frustration but there is a lot to be digested here.
LINK
LINK
This post was edited on 3/12/21 at 7:09 pm
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