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re: Why did Saban not have the same type success at LSU?
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:44 pm to BHMKyle
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:44 pm to BHMKyle
He would have. If I remember a lot of injuries in 02 is why they went 8-5, and I guarantee he would have won a Natty in either 05 or 06 as well as probably went undefeated in 07. The amount of High School talent in Louisiana is insane, he would have done just as well or maybe even better.
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Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:46 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
Take out his first season at both LSU and Alabama since he was essentially rebuilding at both programs...
You don't rebuild a program in one season. Also, Alabama didn't need rebuilding. They had one 6-6 regular season the year before he got there, losing their bowl to finish 6-7. The year before that, they went 10-2 and finished in the top ten. Before he got to LSU, we had eight losing seasons in 11 years, went 3-8 the season before he arrived, 4-7 the one before that. He had a LOT more work to do at LSU than he did at Alabama.
It also didn't hurt that, in 2008, his second year at Alabama, the SEC, aside from Florida, was pretty weak, and he didn't have to face them until the SECCG. In 2001, his 2nd year at LSU, both Florida and Tennessee were NC contenders and he had to face them a combined three times.
That is not even taking into account, of course, that he was a much more established coach when he got to Alabama than he was when he got to LSU, so it was a lot easier for him to recruit.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:48 pm to KiwiHead
quote:
I would say you are wrong. By 2004, Saban's recruiting prowess had assembled for LSU a roster of great players who gave LSU a historically GREAT three year run when Miles came into the picture. Consider these names. JaMarcus Russell, Dwayne Bowe, Craig Davis, Early Doucet, Ali Highsmith, Laron Landry, Matt Flynn, Chevis Jackson, Jonathan Zenon, Glenn Dorsey, Jacob Hester and Peter Dyakowski. All of the above were signed by Nick Saban .
Those guys were all difference makers and if used properly in 2006 LSU would have won the national championship if not for some crappy officiating at Auburn. I would not hesitate to say that if Saban was coaching that team with Fisher as the OC we win that game and we would have avenged the defeat against FLA in the SECCG because by year's end, LSU probably was the best team in the county with Miles as the HC.
We would have repeated in 2007 as well and maybe had gone undefeated.....Kentucky and the Arky losses were coaching failures. I would also assert that LSU would have taken the NC in 2010 and 2011 as well, given the make up of those teams.
Saban leaving conceivably cost LSU 3-4 National Championships from 2005-2012.
I would also say that had Saban never left for Miami, Alabama's fortunes would not be where they are today...probably would have run through a coach or two.
You guys in Tuscaloosa should send Thank you baskets to the Huizengas every year
So then LSU admits that Miles won with Saban's players. That has not always been the narrative from LSU posters.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:48 pm to lsupride87
quote:
saban leaves
2005-lsu goes 11-2 finished 5 in the country
2006-lsu goes 11-2 finished 3 in the country
2007-lsu goes 12-2 wins national title
So in a 5 season stretch, in which we only had Saban for 2 seasons, and a worse coach in Miles for 3:
And yet people constantly tell us how bad Bama is gonna fall off when Saban retires. LSU was coached by a lovable moron and maintained with Saban's players. You don't think Dabo will be able to?
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:49 pm to bamasgot13
If y'all get Dabo y'all will roll. If not, it will be a crapshoot
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:50 pm to lsupride87
quote:
Empirical evidence would tell you Nebraska is a better football program than Florida
Ehhhhhh not so much. Empirical evidence would suggest however, that Oklahoma is a better team than Florida. USC is a better program than Florida and in its prime 1960's and 1970's on the same level as Alabama
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:50 pm to lsupride87
quote:
History matters. But does what hppened before integration truly have an impact on a programs success?
Integration didn't happen at LSU until 2000? I was not aware of that.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:50 pm to Sid E Walker
quote:It's both insofar as Bama's standing as a National program is concerned. You have the impressive history of being the only Southeastern team of relevance in the first half of the century (ok, fine vols, but who cares?). That set you apart early on, then the Bear came. He would have won national titles at KENTUCKY. You have one title between Bryant and Saban. That's 30 years between titles. Pretty average for a National Program.
It's both. Why does Bama have several NC-winning HCs throughout the years and other schools only have 2-3?
And if your reply is "Bama claims NCs left and right," you have no legitimate answer to the question.
^ This is why I believe that Bama is a program whose most impressive achievement was being GREAT when the south was a forgotten entity. This feat set you guys up for long term success and you somehow got Bear Bryant and now have the best coach ever. Both men proved they were superior (or even exceptional) coaches before getting to Bama. THEY are why you win. Not the fact that your team is Alabama.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:50 pm to mountain D values
quote:
Probably because Alabama is a better job than LSU
I mean, LSU has had a ton of success as a program. But if you really go back and analyze all their Championship seasons, most were actually questionable:
2011: SEC Champions
Lost in a rematch to Alabama in a game in which they failed to cross the 50-yardline. Sure they were SEC Champs but they were not the best team in the SEC.
2007: SEC/National Champions
Only 2-loss Champ in the modern era to win the Title... and they lost to Kentucky!
2003: SEC/National Champions
Split title with USC. There will always be debate on who was the better team. LSU gets a trophy and the title, but were they really the best team?
2001: SEC Champions
They were 5-3 in SEC play during the regular season. The only 5-3 team to go on and win the SEC Championship Game
1988: SEC Champions
Split title with Auburn
1986: SEC Champions
SEC Champs yet they lost to Miami (OH)!
I mean sure... I just listed six LSU teams since the 1980s that won SEC Titles.... two of which also won National Titles.... yet all were flawed more so than the typical SEC or National Championship type team. It seems like LSU either falls into Championships, or their program just takes advantage of very weird years in which there aren't really any good teams (re: 2007).
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:51 pm to Sid E Walker
quote:This again?
Integration didn't happen at LSU until 2000
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:51 pm to The muffintime
quote:
that ego that pushed him to Miami.
You're ignorant if you don't know that was the REC working behind the scenes. The REC has always used the Dolphins to help maneuver coaches.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:51 pm to The muffintime
Fair enough.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:53 pm to Sid E Walker
quote:
So then LSU admits that Miles won with Saban's players.
I will fully admit that Saban set up the LSU Program for any coach following him to be ultra successful.
And, yes, Alabama will fare extremely well in the years immediately following Saban's departure as well.
But....... make no mistake, Alabama will have a slow fall off. They don't make Bear Bryant's and Nick Saban's every day.
You older Bama fans know that Alabama post Bear was not nearly as successful as it was with the Bear. Alabama post Saban won't be either.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:53 pm to The muffintime
Alabama is in the "Heart of Dixie" which is the heart of the most fertile recruiting ground in the world and the program (with all the tradition and pageantry) sells itself. Combine THAT with a coach like Bryant or Saban and BOOM there ya go. Fuse is LIT.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:53 pm to lsupride87
quote:
This again?
You're the one that wants to judge from 2000 to the present only and ignore all other historical data.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:55 pm to Sid E Walker
quote:I just don't see why we are using data that doesn't matter
You're the one that wants to judge from 2000 to the present only and ignore all other historical data.
If this thread was made in 1989, you would have been trying to convince me Florida had no chance to every be a power in the sec....
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:56 pm to Tammany Tom
quote:Well if it wasn't for the probation by 1989 we'd have been able to hand our hats on some pretty great accomplishments in the preceding years. Not NC great, but pretty damn good.
If this thread was made in 1989, you would have been trying to convince me Florida had no chance to every be a power in the sec....
ETA:
I do wonder what will happen if their next hire is an average one. The roster of entirely 5*s will be there for a while so he should be in the playoffs if he's worth anything, but how long would it take to get back to Shula levels?
Hire a great coach and you'll probably be successful but I wonder if a great coach could keep you satisfied. Is one title every 5-7 years enough? There is no other Saban. That man does not exist.
This post was edited on 9/29/17 at 5:01 pm
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:56 pm to Sid E Walker
quote:
So then LSU admits that Miles won with Saban's players. That has not always been the narrative from LSU posters.
For the most part, yes, only an idiot would argue otherwise....there are a lot of idiots on the Rant.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 4:56 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
2007: SEC/National Champions
Only 2-loss Champ in the modern era to win the Title... and they lost to Kentucky!
This was not a questionable title.
LSU won the SEC West fair and square and won the SEC Title in 2007 fair and square.
LSU beat 5 teams ranked in the Top 15 in 2007 including ACC Champion Virginia Tech by 40. LSU beat the only 1 loss team in the country in Big Ten Champion Ohio State in the National Title game.
Posted on 9/29/17 at 5:00 pm to Hussss
quote:Makes sense I suppose but does being the heart of the South make up for the squalor they'd been in since they lost the war? Maybe yes, I don't know. But why not Georgia? Why not Ole Miss? Random chance?
Alabama is in the "Heart of Dixie" which is the heart of the most fertile recruiting ground in the world and the program (with all the tradition and pageantry) sells itself. Combine THAT with a coach like Bryant or Saban and BOOM there ya go. Fuse is LIT.
ETA: UT won every early title before their 67 one under Neyland. Their only other title is 1998. Pretty solid evidence for the coach making the team, and not the other way around, I think. UT's success under half a century of Robert Neyland did nothing to give them any more success than any other national program once the man was done. They didn't land a Bryant, let alone a Saban.
OK I've digressed enough...point is I think the evidence is pretty solid that Saban would have done just as well at LSU as at Bama after accounting for randomness and possible minor differences.
This post was edited on 9/29/17 at 5:07 pm
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