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re: Where did the Alabama basketball arrogance come from?
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:13 pm to lion
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:13 pm to lion
quote:
Apparently you do not realize that for a very long time only one team from a conference could make the tournament - and thats a problem when Kentucky is in your conference.
That's not been the case since at least the mid 1970s.
3
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:25 pm to Jack Daniel
They bought into the Avery hype instead of looking at how his NBA HC career turned out.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 2:46 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
That's not been the case since at least the mid 1970s.
Alabama was 22-4 and SEC Co-Champ at 15-3 in 1974. But Vanderbilt swept them and won the SEC and the Mideast Regional was played in Tuscaloosa so they couldn't participate in the NIT. They also had an NCAA worthy team in 1973.
Vanderbilt and Tennessee would definitely have more bids had the format been the same in the 1960's to early 70's. Alabama's '74 team is more of big deal,IMO than the Maryland team that same year that ESPN and CBS go on about. Their '72 team would have gotten in as well as their 1977 team.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:05 pm to Jack Daniel
quote:Here is where you got a bit too aggressive
Historically they are one of the least prestigious basketball programs in the SEC.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:30 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
Bama is not a program that has ever made the NCAA Tournament 2 out of every 3 seasons with the exception of a relatively short time period under Wimp Sanderson.
That's just not true, and it was proven over a 30 year period through multiple coaches what our program can reasonably expect good coaches to do.
quote:
Alabama Post-Wimp Sanderson: Alabama has made the Tournament 8 times out of 23 seasons.
You do realize why this was, right? Take a look at everyone else's NCAAT numbers before 1975. Kentucky won the SEC and Kentucky went to the NCAAT.
So, from 1975 to 2006 Alabama made the NCAAT 20 times in 31 years. From 2007 to 2017 Alabama made the NCAAT 1 time in 10 years.
So, again, it's very reasonable to expect to have a program that challenges for NCAAT bids every year and makes the tournament 2 of every 3 years. Until the crash post-Gottfried we did it over the 30 years of modern college basketball over a span of 4 coaches (Newton, Wimp, Hobbs, Gottfried).
We aren't firing coaches because they don't win SEC or National Titles. We are firing them (or wanting to fire them) for going to 1 tournament in 5 years and 0 tournaments in 3 years. Anyone arguing that isn't a totally reasonable expectation at Alabama, given our history post-integration and post-NCAAT expansion is just being argumentative.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 3:33 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:35 pm to Jack Daniel
Alabama certainly isn’t one of the traditional bottom feeders in SEC Basketball history, that’s more A&M, Ole Miss, and Auburn. However, their lack of postseason successs overshadows everything about their basketball program.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:36 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
Skewed by Wimp Sanderson going 10 times in 11 seasons. Take 1982-1992 out of the equation, and Bama has been 8 times in 24 seasons..... and prior to Wimp Bama had only been twice ever. Obviously that 11-year run under Wimp Sanderson skews everything. It was not norm.
CM Newton had at least 5 teams that would be shoe in NCAAT teams in todays NCAA from 1972-1980. CM went 119-43 in the SEC from 1972 to 1980. That's 73% winning, the equivalent of a 13-5 season in the current SEC. He went 189-69 (78%) from 1972-1980 overall. He went to 2 NCAA Tournaments. Again, acting like pre-Wimp we were a barren wasteland is just silly. Hell, we finished ranked in the Top 15 4 times over that period and we went to TWO NCAA TOURNAMENTS!
Wimp went to the NCAA Tournament 10 times in 11 years
Gottfried went to the NCAA Tournament 6 years in a row
David frickin Hobbs went to the NCAAT 2 times in 6 years
Alabama is not going to go to NCAA Tournaments with bad coaches. Alabama needs a good head coach to consistently win games. But it's clear as day that a good head coach at Alabama should be consistently in the NCAA Tournament conversation and in the NCAAT as much or more than they aren't.
That is not unreasonable and it is what we will continue to demand.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:45 pm to BHMKyle
All time college basketball wins:
#1 - Kentucky
#27 - Arkansas
#31 - Alabama
#47 - Vanderbilt
#48 - Missouri
All time college basketball winning %
#27 - Alabama
Not bad for one of the least prestigious programs in the history of the league.
20 all time NCAA tournament appearances despite only 1 in the last 12 years. For the record, very few if any SEC basketball programs with the obvious exception of Kentucky had a significant number of tourney appearances until the tournament expanded in the late 1970s. It is actually the post Gottfried streak of only having 1 tourney appearance in 12 years that is the anomaly, not the consistency of the Wimp Sanderson era.
#1 - Kentucky
#27 - Arkansas
#31 - Alabama
#47 - Vanderbilt
#48 - Missouri
All time college basketball winning %
#27 - Alabama
Not bad for one of the least prestigious programs in the history of the league.
20 all time NCAA tournament appearances despite only 1 in the last 12 years. For the record, very few if any SEC basketball programs with the obvious exception of Kentucky had a significant number of tourney appearances until the tournament expanded in the late 1970s. It is actually the post Gottfried streak of only having 1 tourney appearance in 12 years that is the anomaly, not the consistency of the Wimp Sanderson era.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:45 pm to SummerOfGeorge
CM Newton's teams from 1972 to 1980
1972 : 18-8 (13-5); 41st SRS rankings
1973 : 22-8 (13-5); 32nd SRS rankings, NIT
1974 : #14 AP, 22-4 (15-3), 8th SRS rankings, NIT
1975 : #10 AP, 22-5 (15-3), 15th SRS rankings, NCAAT
1976 : #6 AP, 23-5 (15-3), 10th SRS rankings, NCAAT
1977 : #11 AP, 25-6 (14-4), 20th SRS rankings, NIT
1978 : 17-10 (11-7), 84th SRS rankings
1979 : 22-11 (11-7), 58th SRS rankings
1980 : 18-12 (12-6), 95th SRS rankings
4 AP Top 15 finishes, 2 NCAA Tournaments. 92-20 (59-13) from 1974 to 1977, finished ranked in the Top 14 every year............2 NCAA Tournaments.
Clearly this period should be used to show that Alabama just can't expect to be a solid basketball program. I mean, 2 NCAA Tournaments, they sucked!
1972 : 18-8 (13-5); 41st SRS rankings
1973 : 22-8 (13-5); 32nd SRS rankings, NIT
1974 : #14 AP, 22-4 (15-3), 8th SRS rankings, NIT
1975 : #10 AP, 22-5 (15-3), 15th SRS rankings, NCAAT
1976 : #6 AP, 23-5 (15-3), 10th SRS rankings, NCAAT
1977 : #11 AP, 25-6 (14-4), 20th SRS rankings, NIT
1978 : 17-10 (11-7), 84th SRS rankings
1979 : 22-11 (11-7), 58th SRS rankings
1980 : 18-12 (12-6), 95th SRS rankings
4 AP Top 15 finishes, 2 NCAA Tournaments. 92-20 (59-13) from 1974 to 1977, finished ranked in the Top 14 every year............2 NCAA Tournaments.
Clearly this period should be used to show that Alabama just can't expect to be a solid basketball program. I mean, 2 NCAA Tournaments, they sucked!
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 3:51 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:46 pm to Jack Daniel
quote:
They all of a sudden expect to be a premier, no doubt tournament team every year or fire their coach. Historically they are one of the least prestigious basketball programs in the SEC.
Where did this entitlement come from?
You are incorrect, from beginning to end.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:48 pm to John Milner
They've also been in the conference as long or longer than anyone else.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:53 pm to Rabern57
quote:
Rabern57
Is it that time of your day when Bama is on your mind? You’ve admitted that you devote one hour a day to Bama.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 3:58 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
That's just not true, and it was proven over a 30 year period through multiple coaches what our program can reasonably expect good coaches to do.
No, it is skewed by Wimp's 10 Tournament appearances in 11 seasons.
1975-1981: 2 Appearances in 6 seasons (33.0%)
1982-1992: 10 Appearances in 11 seasons (90.9%)
1993-2017: 8 Appearances in 25 seasons (32.0%)
So aside from Wimp's run in the '80s, Alabama has historically made the Tournament once every 3 seasons.... you're now saying its reasonable for Bama fans to expect twice that.
It's the equivalent of a Miami football fan saying that a reasonable expectation for a HC of their program today is a National Title every 4 seasons and a Top 5 finish every-other year. They won 5 National Titles from 1983-2001, and they had twelve Top 5 finishes from 1983-2003, so therefore those must be reasonable expectations. Nevermind the fact that Miami had never had a Top 5 finish prior to 1983 and they've now gone 14 consecutive seasons without even a Top 10 finish.
Just because Miami went on a tear for the 21 seasons from 1983-2003 doesn't mean that those successes should be treated as if they are the program norm. They were anomaly... it wasn't that way before and it hasn't been that way since.
It's the same with Alabama basketball only we're not talking major championships.... just NCAA Tournament appearances. But just because Wimp put together a great 10-year run doesn't mean you can divide that blip over the course of a much longer time period and act like it was the norm.
It would make the same amount of sense for me to just take Alabama basketball since 1996 and say that Bama has only made the Tournament six times in 22 seasons so therefore Bama is really only a "Once every 3.5" seasons in the NCAA Tourney kind of program.
The truth is stats can be manipulated by time periods in which there was an anomaly. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Bama basketball is not as bad as their Tournament Appearance rate from 1996-2017 would indicate (27.3%), but they certainly aren't as good as the selective years of 1982-2006 would indicate (68%)
Since 1975, Bama has made the Tournament 20 times in 43 years (with one of those being vacated but we'll still count it here). That equates to 46% of the time.
As I stated before, its irrational for Bama fans to expect their program to make the Tournament 67% of the time. It's far better than Bama basketball has traditionally performed without using selective time periods that manipulate the statistics.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 4:01 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
No, it is skewed by Wimp's 10 Tournament appearances in 11 seasons. 1975-1981: 2 Appearances in 6 seasons (33.0%)
You keep using both 1975-1980, a period in which we were NCAA Tournament good, and the current drought - a period in which we have hired coaches who have proven to not be good.
The point, clearly, is that when we have good coaches (CM, Wimp, Gottfried) we make the NCAAT more than we don't. That is not an unrealistic expectation for Alabama fans to have. It has been proven that it can be done, it was not just done by a once in a lifetime coach, it was done by multiple coaches in multiple eras.
CM had Alabama at a NCAAT level for 8 years in the 1970s
Wimp/Hobbs had Alabama at a NCAAT level for 15 years in the 1980s and early 1990s
Gottfried had Alabama at a NCAAT level for 6 years in the 2000s
We've had NCAAT level teams more-so than we haven't in almost every decade since they expanded the tournament EXCEPT the current one.
THEREFORE, our expectation is that we can hire a good basketball coach and be a NCAAT challenging program. If we don't hire a good coach, we will not. We will be in NIT purgatory. If we do hire a good coach (see CM, Wimp and Gottfried) we will be a NCAAT program.
It isn't hard to figure out. The history is there. That's why people see 3-5 years of a guy, realize they are NOT one of those guys, and are ready to make a change.
It's completely reasonable.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 4:03 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 4:02 pm to Jack Daniel
They're still ahead of LSU in the AP's all-time ranking. 
Posted on 2/28/18 at 4:09 pm to Korin
Bottom line and then I have to head out of here.
When Alabama has a good basketball coach we make NCAA Tournaments more often than we don't. When Alabama does not have good basketball coaches we are generally a good but not great team that goes to the NIT.
CM Newton (1969-1980) : 2 NCAAT (6 NCAAT caliber teams), 131-85 SEC, 211-123 overall
Wimp Sanderson (1981-1992) : 10 NCAAT, 132-82 SEC, 267-119 overall
Mark Gottfried (1999-2009) : 6 NCAAT, 83-82 SEC, 210-131 overall
32 years from 1969-2018 of solid to very good head coaches : 18 NCAA Tournaments and it should have been 20 or 21 (and would have been in modern day)
On the flip side
David Hobbs (1992-1998) : 2 NCAAT, 50-46 SEC, 110-76 overall
Anthony Grant (2009-2015) : 1 NCAAT, 54-49 SEC, 117-85 overall
Avery Johnson (2016-2018) : 0 NCAAT, 26-25 SEC, 54-41 overall
19 years from 1969-2018 of average to bad head coaches : 3 NCAA Tournaments
If we have a good coach we can be a solid program. If we have an average coach we will be an average program. We aren't good enough as a program to prop up a bad coach, but we are good enough to let a good coach be good.
/rant over
When Alabama has a good basketball coach we make NCAA Tournaments more often than we don't. When Alabama does not have good basketball coaches we are generally a good but not great team that goes to the NIT.
CM Newton (1969-1980) : 2 NCAAT (6 NCAAT caliber teams), 131-85 SEC, 211-123 overall
Wimp Sanderson (1981-1992) : 10 NCAAT, 132-82 SEC, 267-119 overall
Mark Gottfried (1999-2009) : 6 NCAAT, 83-82 SEC, 210-131 overall
32 years from 1969-2018 of solid to very good head coaches : 18 NCAA Tournaments and it should have been 20 or 21 (and would have been in modern day)
On the flip side
David Hobbs (1992-1998) : 2 NCAAT, 50-46 SEC, 110-76 overall
Anthony Grant (2009-2015) : 1 NCAAT, 54-49 SEC, 117-85 overall
Avery Johnson (2016-2018) : 0 NCAAT, 26-25 SEC, 54-41 overall
19 years from 1969-2018 of average to bad head coaches : 3 NCAA Tournaments
If we have a good coach we can be a solid program. If we have an average coach we will be an average program. We aren't good enough as a program to prop up a bad coach, but we are good enough to let a good coach be good.
/rant over
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 4:11 pm
Posted on 2/28/18 at 4:11 pm to lsudave1
quote:
Alabama certainly isn’t one of the traditional bottom feeders in SEC Basketball history, that’s more A&M, Ole Miss, and Auburn. However, their lack of postseason successs overshadows everything about their basketball program.
Agreed. It's funny because Bama fans completely contradict themselves when it comes to basketball. When it comes to football they are always saying there is really just a "Big 1" and the rest of the "Big 6" don't come close..... and their rationale is that its all about Championships. Who cares if Georgia, Auburn, etc. have a bunch of Top 10 finishes and wins over several decades, etc.... that doesn't matter because its all about Championships.
Yet when it comes to Basketball, they want to believe they are just a notch below a program like Arkansas and they want respect for a bunch of "lesser" accomplishments. They start pulling out their number of SEC Tournament Championships or some type of obscure stat to make their basketball program seem more relevant.
They don't seem to think its relevant that there are 7 SEC programs to make a Final 4, yet Bama is not one of them. Their deepest run in the Tournament was one lone Elite 8 yet Tennessee, Vanderbilt, and even Auburn have the same number of Elite 8 appearances.
Bama fans demand respect for their basketball program despite an underwhelming historical success in the NCAA Tournament... which is really all that matters with Basketball. Yet belittle any other program's accomplishments on the football field if its anything short of a National Title.
And they never see the hypocrisy.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 4:11 pm to Sid E Walker
quote:It's also the time of day I am on your mind. You told the same joke idk how many times begging me to bite.
Is it that time of your day when Bama is on your mind?
Posted on 2/28/18 at 4:13 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
Yet when it comes to Basketball, they want to believe they are just a notch below a program like Arkansas and they want respect for a bunch of "lesser" accomplishments. They start pulling out their number of SEC Tournament Championships or some type of obscure stat to make their basketball program seem more relevant.
I don't know about others but I think we are very much a middle of the pack SEC program. We are light years behind Kentucky, Florida and Arkansas and, because of the Final Fours and Elite 8s, a ways behind LSU too.
We are probably slightly behind Missouri because of their more consistent success and are basically twins with Tennessee.
I think you ranking is pretty much dead on.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 4:21 pm to BHMKyle
quote:Alabama's been to 20 NCAA tournaments. How do the other SEC teams not named Kentucky stack up against that?
That's not been the case since at least the mid 1970s.
Tennessee-20
LSU-21
Georgia-12
Vandy-15
Florida-20
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 4:35 pm
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