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re: nevermind
Posted on 8/17/18 at 10:22 am to Nitro Express
Posted on 8/17/18 at 10:22 am to Nitro Express
quote:
Alabama had too many hands in the cookie jar.
That’s Texas and LSU’s problem now.
1
Posted on 8/17/18 at 10:27 am to OKTGR580
quote:
That’s Texas and LSU’s problem now.
Totally agree. Sometimes programs are their own worst enemies. Frankly, this is my worry for Alabama after Saban retires. There was a power struggle after Bear and I expect their to be one after Saban. I hope the administration is strong enough and wise enough to do the right thing.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 10:40 am to Nitro Express
I'd say that the amount of influence and participation by Saban in choosing his successor will determine how smoothly the transition will go....remember, Coach Bryant was ill and died shortly after he retired. My recommendation would be to get Saban to remain with the University in an advisory capacity for a while. Just his presence would keep the wolves at bay.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 10:42 am to coachcrisp
One can only hope.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 10:43 am to SAINTS0321
He is a Bilichick disciple.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 10:51 am to Nitro Express
The problem is getting all the big wigs to step back and allow the HC to be in total control. Saban has the keys and it’s obviously working well.
I have a feeling Jimbo has total control at a&m that’s why they paid him so much and that’s why he left FSU. LSU wasn’t willing to give him the keys to everything that’s why he said no.
Dabo Sweeney has the keys at Clemson. Same with Meyer at OSU. It’s an all in mentality you have to have.
Orgeron is NOT in control and I feel like all those years Les wasn’t either.
I have a feeling Jimbo has total control at a&m that’s why they paid him so much and that’s why he left FSU. LSU wasn’t willing to give him the keys to everything that’s why he said no.
Dabo Sweeney has the keys at Clemson. Same with Meyer at OSU. It’s an all in mentality you have to have.
Orgeron is NOT in control and I feel like all those years Les wasn’t either.
This post was edited on 8/17/18 at 10:53 am
Posted on 8/17/18 at 11:10 am to The Baker
No. And despite what people say he couldn't turn just any P5 school into a dynasty. He was good at MSU but never a world beater. He was good at LSU but also had a few 3, 4 loss seasons in the short time he was there.
To make themselves feel better they say, oh , he was better after his NFL stint. No, he's the same coach. There are 4 maybe 5 programs he could have done what he did at Alabama. OSU, USC, TEXAS, Oklahoma and maybe Mich.
Bama has benefited from Saban but Saban has benefited from Bama as well. It's why he has stayed. He could go to Kentucky and not have a dynasty just like Cal could come to Bama and not have a bball dynasty.
There's a thing called DNA. Bama has excellence in football DNA. Ohio state has it. Kentucky, DUke, UNC, Kansas has bball DNA. Duke had like 4 final fours before coach K. They played for the national title in 1978 with Bill Foster as head coach. UNC has 2 national titles since Dean Smith, One with Frank McGuire. Kansas has national titles with Larry Brown, Roy Williams, Phog Allen and Bill Self.
To make themselves feel better they say, oh , he was better after his NFL stint. No, he's the same coach. There are 4 maybe 5 programs he could have done what he did at Alabama. OSU, USC, TEXAS, Oklahoma and maybe Mich.
Bama has benefited from Saban but Saban has benefited from Bama as well. It's why he has stayed. He could go to Kentucky and not have a dynasty just like Cal could come to Bama and not have a bball dynasty.
There's a thing called DNA. Bama has excellence in football DNA. Ohio state has it. Kentucky, DUke, UNC, Kansas has bball DNA. Duke had like 4 final fours before coach K. They played for the national title in 1978 with Bill Foster as head coach. UNC has 2 national titles since Dean Smith, One with Frank McGuire. Kansas has national titles with Larry Brown, Roy Williams, Phog Allen and Bill Self.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 12:07 pm to The Baker
quote:
If he wanted to, could Saban turn a team like akron or toledo into a dynasty?
Nah
He could get the administration, a great staff, and even same players for a while.
But he'd never get the money. Nor would he maintain pick of the litter for ever, not once players didn't have the schedule or competition to get NFL ready. Which is definitely part of his mojo. Nor would he have the SEC ( Mark Emmert) to protect his flank, by looking the other way, or making Saban rules. He'd also lose lot's of media bias (and old money) so forget those favorable nod's to the play off games. Plus if he left the Bama Nation would do everything to stymie him - including possibly burning the new place to the ground.
Plus without all those REC lawyers... once the accusations were made (and they have been many) ... something old might become new again. Which is probably the biggest reason he couldn't, because he'd never be allowed to go to a much smaller school, it'd take another power to protect him. Poor guy he's a lifer.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 12:18 pm to awestruck
quote:
Nah
He could get the administration, a great staff, and even same players for a while.
But he'd never get the money. Nor would he maintain pick of the litter for ever, not once players didn't have the schedule or competition to get NFL ready. Which is definitely part of his mojo. Nor would he have the SEC ( Mark Emmert) to protect his flank, by looking the other way, or making Saban rules. He'd also lose lot's of media bias (and old money) so forget those favorable nod's to the play off games. Plus if he left the Bama Nation would do everything to stymie him - including possibly burning the new place to the ground.
Plus without all those REC lawyers... once the accusations were made (and they have been many) ... something old might become new again. Which is probably the biggest reason he couldn't, because he'd never be allowed to go to a much smaller school, it'd take another power to protect him. Poor guy he's a lifer.
Wow dude, do you get discounts on the aluminum foil you cover you head with?
Posted on 8/17/18 at 12:47 pm to The Baker
No. Saban's model only works at a school like Bama.
They have so many resources that help them succeed... Yes, facilities, etc., but also high dollar boosters who are so obsessed with winning they'll do anything for the program to succeed.
He would have good success at other schools with similar resources (i.e. LSU) but nowhere outside of Tuscaloosa has boosters like Bama that will literally spend every ounce of income they can muster to help the Tide succeed.
Look at his resume at Michigan State:
1995: 6-5-1
1996: 6-6
1997: 7-5
1998: 6-6
1999: 10-2
He had one decent year. The rest were pretty horrible. Then he moved on to LSU:
2000: 8-4
2001: 10-3
2002: 8-5
2003: 13-1
2004: 9-3
Certainly a good record overall. But to be honest, averaging over 3 losses per season at a school like LSU (before the SEC was so brutal) is not all that impressive.
Just like at Michigan State, he really only had one great year, which was the 2003 National Championship Team.
In 2000, he beat #17 Georgia Tech and #24 Mississippi State. But LSU was slaughtered by the two best SEC teams on their schedule, losing by 32 points to #10 Florida and by 17 points to #18 Auburn. They lost to UAB at home. And they also lost to 6-6 Arkansas.
In 2001, yes LSU won the SEC. But they were also the first ever 5-3 SEC team to win an SEC Championship Game.
I don't think Saban every got enough criticism for how disappointing the 2002 team was. In Year 3, LSU deserved better. Yet LSU faced four ranked teams: #6 Texas, #11 Alabama, #14 Auburn, and #18 Virginia Tech.
The results were LSU losing all four games by 15, 18, 24, and 31 points.
Throw in there a loss to unranked Arkansas. A narrow 1-point win over 6-loss Ole Miss and a 3-point win over 5-loss Kentucky preserved bowl eligibility for LSU that year.
The 2003 season won the National Title.
But the 2004 season... with tons of talent... should have been better. LSU started the year #4 in the AP. But they lost to every solid team they faced: to #2 Auburn, #7 Georgia, and #8 Iowa.
All of LSU's 2004 wins came against teams that finished outside the Final Top 25:
Oregon State (7-5)
Troy (7-5)
Florida (7-5)
Alabama (6-6)
Arkansas (5-6)
Ole Miss (4-7)
Miss St (3-8)
Arkansas St (3-8)
Vanderbilt (2-9)
That's a pretty horrific resume.... especially when you consider that 3 of those wins were by 3 points or less.
When you take a step back and look at his resume, Saban never got LSU remotely close to the level he's achieved at Alabama. With the exception of 2003, there always seemed to be holes in LSU's teams. Just like under Miles, LSU lost some head-scratchers.... they barely escaped against some very bad opponents... etc.
Saban didn't get Michigan State or LSU even close to where he's taken Bama. He certainly wouldn't be able to do it at Akron or Toledo.
They have so many resources that help them succeed... Yes, facilities, etc., but also high dollar boosters who are so obsessed with winning they'll do anything for the program to succeed.
He would have good success at other schools with similar resources (i.e. LSU) but nowhere outside of Tuscaloosa has boosters like Bama that will literally spend every ounce of income they can muster to help the Tide succeed.
Look at his resume at Michigan State:
1995: 6-5-1
1996: 6-6
1997: 7-5
1998: 6-6
1999: 10-2
He had one decent year. The rest were pretty horrible. Then he moved on to LSU:
2000: 8-4
2001: 10-3
2002: 8-5
2003: 13-1
2004: 9-3
Certainly a good record overall. But to be honest, averaging over 3 losses per season at a school like LSU (before the SEC was so brutal) is not all that impressive.
Just like at Michigan State, he really only had one great year, which was the 2003 National Championship Team.
In 2000, he beat #17 Georgia Tech and #24 Mississippi State. But LSU was slaughtered by the two best SEC teams on their schedule, losing by 32 points to #10 Florida and by 17 points to #18 Auburn. They lost to UAB at home. And they also lost to 6-6 Arkansas.
In 2001, yes LSU won the SEC. But they were also the first ever 5-3 SEC team to win an SEC Championship Game.
I don't think Saban every got enough criticism for how disappointing the 2002 team was. In Year 3, LSU deserved better. Yet LSU faced four ranked teams: #6 Texas, #11 Alabama, #14 Auburn, and #18 Virginia Tech.
The results were LSU losing all four games by 15, 18, 24, and 31 points.
Throw in there a loss to unranked Arkansas. A narrow 1-point win over 6-loss Ole Miss and a 3-point win over 5-loss Kentucky preserved bowl eligibility for LSU that year.
The 2003 season won the National Title.
But the 2004 season... with tons of talent... should have been better. LSU started the year #4 in the AP. But they lost to every solid team they faced: to #2 Auburn, #7 Georgia, and #8 Iowa.
All of LSU's 2004 wins came against teams that finished outside the Final Top 25:
Oregon State (7-5)
Troy (7-5)
Florida (7-5)
Alabama (6-6)
Arkansas (5-6)
Ole Miss (4-7)
Miss St (3-8)
Arkansas St (3-8)
Vanderbilt (2-9)
That's a pretty horrific resume.... especially when you consider that 3 of those wins were by 3 points or less.
When you take a step back and look at his resume, Saban never got LSU remotely close to the level he's achieved at Alabama. With the exception of 2003, there always seemed to be holes in LSU's teams. Just like under Miles, LSU lost some head-scratchers.... they barely escaped against some very bad opponents... etc.
Saban didn't get Michigan State or LSU even close to where he's taken Bama. He certainly wouldn't be able to do it at Akron or Toledo.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:01 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
Certainly a good record overall. But to be honest, averaging over 3 losses per season at a school like LSU (before the SEC was so brutal) is not all that impressive.
I'm gonna guess you either don't know history or just have a strong recency bias. Pre-Saban, they had 3 winning seasons in the last 10. There were 4 more 5-6 seasons. They were 54-59 (47.7%). The program was in a very bad place when he took over.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:22 pm to LukeSidewalker
quote:
He needed Bama to be great.
I used to think bama fans saying this were just trolling. Fact is, they actually believe it.
If Saban stayed at LSU, no telling how many NC he would have. If he had gone to any other P5 after NFL, he would have been just as successful as at bama (Texas, LSU, Florida, tenn, USC, Michigan, OSU). If you think bama made Saban, you are delusional.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:22 pm to DoreonthePlains
quote:
I'm gonna guess you either don't know history or just have a strong recency bias. Pre-Saban, they had 3 winning seasons in the last 10.
I know history very well. And yes, LSU was horrible throughout most of the 1990s. But guess who else was horrible before Saban's arrival?.... Alabama. Yet he had them 12-0 in the regular season in Year 2 and winning the National Title in Year 3. That's my entire point.
While LSU was bad from 1989 up through 1999, the year before Saban's arrival, they were still a major program. They had relatively good facilities for the time and they had a solid football history. Even after a decade of suffering, following the 1999 season, LSU ranked #13 in all-time AP Poll Points.
Plus, the absolute low point of LSU's run was in the early 90s under Hallman. Jerry Dinardo actually recruited fairly well. From 1996 through mid 1998, LSU was ranked in the AP Top 25 in 43 consecutive poll releases. It was the close of the '98 season and the '99 season that were bad and got Dinardo fired. Believe it or not, when Saban was hired LSU was not all that far removed from being fairly decent. There was talent when he got there.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:24 pm to The Baker
If he had Bama bagman and his buddy at the NCAA covering his arse
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:27 pm to The Baker
LSU has just as many, if not more advantages, than Alabama considering the amount of in-state talent that Louisiana produces. Saban failed horibly in the NFL don't forget that.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:28 pm to BHMKyle
I just looked up their records... Against teams that FINISHED in the AP Top 25:
Saban at LSU.... 8-12 (40.0%)
Miles at LSU.... 29-15 (65.9%)
Contrary to popular thought, Saban's time at LSU was not remarkably impressive. His 2003 team was certainly great, but outside of that, his performance as LSU HC was pretty mediocre.
Outside of 2003, Saban was a horrendous 4-11 (26.7%) against ranked opponents in his other four seasons in Baton Rouge.
Instead of asking the question about whether Saban could turn Akron or Toledo into a champion, maybe the question that should be asked is with Bama's resources could Dan Mullen or Bert Bielema win a National Title at Bama. That's probably the better discussion.
Saban at LSU.... 8-12 (40.0%)
Miles at LSU.... 29-15 (65.9%)
Contrary to popular thought, Saban's time at LSU was not remarkably impressive. His 2003 team was certainly great, but outside of that, his performance as LSU HC was pretty mediocre.
Outside of 2003, Saban was a horrendous 4-11 (26.7%) against ranked opponents in his other four seasons in Baton Rouge.
Instead of asking the question about whether Saban could turn Akron or Toledo into a champion, maybe the question that should be asked is with Bama's resources could Dan Mullen or Bert Bielema win a National Title at Bama. That's probably the better discussion.
This post was edited on 8/17/18 at 1:29 pm
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:50 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
But guess who else was horrible before Saban's arrival?.... Alabama. Yet he had them 12-0 in the regular season in Year 2 and winning the National Title in Year 3. That's my entire point.
While Saban absolutely had a quicker turn around at Alabama, I'm not sure your point is accurate about their struggles. They had 5 winning seasons on the field in the previous 10, but some of those were stripped for violations. I'm not sure that matters to recruits though. They also had one 6-6 and one 6-7 year, so they were at .500 for the regular season or better in 7 of the 10 seasons prior to Saban. That is significantly better than LSU had been.
quote:
Plus, the absolute low point of LSU's run was in the early 90s under Hallman. Jerry Dinardo actually recruited fairly well. From 1996 through mid 1998, LSU was ranked in the AP Top 25 in 43 consecutive poll releases. It was the close of the '98 season and the '99 season that were bad and got Dinardo fired. Believe it or not, when Saban was hired LSU was not all that far removed from being fairly decent. There was talent when he got there.
This, I'm not too sure about though. I have to admit that I don't have much memory of college football from the time I was 1 to 4 years old, but the DiNardo time had a very sharp fall-off. That points to a talent or player development issue because most coaches don't just forget how to do Xs and Os, unless maybe a very important assistant was the real brains of the operation and left.
Furthermore, I do think Saban learned a lot in the NFL. I'd be really curious to have candid interviews from people that worked under him at MSU, LSU, and Alabama, especially if any worked at multiple stops, to see how he changed over the years. Over time, the Saban mystique has built, too, so I think any move to a lesser program would automatically buoy that program just by Saban's name alone.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:57 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
No. Saban's model only works at a school like Bama.
They have so many resources that help them succeed... Yes, facilities, etc., but also high dollar boosters who are so obsessed with winning they'll do anything for the program to succeed.
BS...it would work at any big time P5 school thats willing to spend the resources along with cooperative administration and a fertile recruiting base.
He revolutionized recruiting when he came from the Dolphins with the hiring of multiple recruiting analyst.He didn't have that philosophy at LSU or MSU.
There's no magic pixie dust or "DNA" at Tuscaloosa...he wins because he recruits the best players and Alabama gives him the resources to help him get them.
Posted on 8/17/18 at 1:59 pm to TouchdownTony
quote:
To make themselves feel better they say, oh , he was better after his NFL stint. No, he's the same coach.
Being in the NFL for 2 years should make anyone a better coach, plus you carry more weight on the recruiting trail after being a head coach in the NFL
Posted on 8/17/18 at 2:04 pm to The Baker
As has always been the case, Saban was basically Tommy Tuberville until REC funds began showing up in droves.
2 10-win seasons in his first 12 years as a college HC.
2 10-win seasons in his first 12 years as a college HC.
This post was edited on 8/17/18 at 2:07 pm
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