re: If a QB accidentally releases the ball on the forward motion of a pump fake

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Thats cool.

This wasnt a pass, you're just trying to argue.

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The basis of your opinion is that incomplete passes thrown by the player after he crosses the LOS are ruled as live balls. Can you or anyone support that?

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You’re being purposefully stupid.

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Is that even possible with him?

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Neither is the QB when he’s trying to pump fake.

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Seen this happen in a game, it was ruled a fumble(correctly).


OP drank more than i did saturday it seems.

It depends, is the QB Tom Brady because different rules apply to him.

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That’s a good one to bring to this discussion.

Here, the ball is not released in the same motion as the arm going forward - there’s a very small but identifiable gap between the forward arm movement and the release. The player has the ball extended and loses control while the ball is extended, not during the process of the extension.

Looking closer, it looks like TN could make the argument the player had firm control in one hand and the flick of the wirst forward constitutes a “throw” since the ball traveled forward, but the motion could be argued to be more down than forward and that the ball went forward because of the player’s forward momentum not because he threw the ball forward. Interesting case.

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The basis of your opinion is that incomplete passes thrown by the player after he crosses the LOS are ruled as live balls

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A quick google only returned NFL rules,but it's a dead ball when it touches the ground. It can be "intercepted" just not "recovered". 5 yard penalty from previous spot and loss of down.

I'm not going through the entire passing section of the NCAA rulebook. So I was wrong about it being live until possessed. In the NFL.

I can’t believe you’re actually still making this argument.

You keep trying to compare an RB on a running play to a QB on a passing play.

Yes, there are borderline cases during a QB scramble where it is not clear whether the QB fumbled or attempted a pass. Yes, there have been cases where a QB attempted a suspect “shovel pass” and it has been called incomplete instead of a fumble.

Here is the actual rule that says a QB’s forward arm motion starts the pass:

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Forward and Backward Pass
ARTICLE 2. a. A pass is forward if the ball first strikes the ground, a player, an official or anything else beyond the spot where the ball is released. All other passes are backward passes. When in question a pass thrown in or behind the neutral zone is forward rather than a backward pass.(Exception: Games using Instant Replay)
b. When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of the passer’s hand with the ball firmly in their control starts the forward pass unless the player clearly starts to bring the ball back with firm control to the passer’s body. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player (A.R. 2-19-2-I).

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The rule applies when a player is attempting a pass forward toward the neutral zone. You can’t attempt a forward pass toward the neutral zone if you’re 20 yards past the line of scrimmage.

This is a really weird hill to die on.

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by Jon Ham

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I never though I’d see anyone on Tigerdroppings make a bigger arse of themselves and show themselves to be even more stupid than OweO. But here you are.

Do you agree these are the required elements for a forward pass?

1) player voluntary moving arm forward
2) player has control of the ball when moving arm forward
3) the ball travels forward after the player releases the ball

If so, which requirement did the Missouri player not satisfy?

Edit: or are you in the camp that says a forward pass after the player crosses the LOS is a live ball?

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The motion was the same as a shovel pass. Shovel passes are throwing motions, are they not?

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Not necessarily. Go look up "shovel pass" in youtube. There is a lot of variety in throwing motion that is still considered a "shovel pass", because the pass doesn't use a traditional overhead or outward side-armed motion. There are shovel passes that are underhanded, as well. Because of the variety of motions you can have, you can't say the runners motion was distinctly a shovel pass motion, and therefore there is some interpretation needed.

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The existence of an intended receiver is an irrelevant factor as illustrated in the example I posted a moment ago when a QB is trying to throw the ball out of bounds.

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That is a stated exception in the rule book, where a QB can throw the ball out of bounds only when they are outside of the tacklebox. When they are inside the tacklebox, a throw out of bounds (or where no intended receiver is) is considered intentional grounding. So even in the case of the QB, the presence or absence of a receiver does matter depending on the context.

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You don’t have to assume anything.

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Go read the rule book. There is a lot of wiggle room for interpretation (assumptions) on the part of the refs.

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Refs are mandated to observe and recognize the objective mechanics, which are:

1) player voluntary moving arm forward
2) player has control of the ball when moving arm forward
3) the ball travels forward after the player releases the ball

These three criteria were satisfied by the Missouri player.

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According to the 2021 NCAA rule book, "To fumble the ball is to lose player possession by any act other than passing, kicking or successful handing". Also, "Passing the ball is throwing it."

The question that is up for interpretation is whether or not the ball was thrown (a pass, as you think), or possession unintentionally lost (a fumble, as was clearly the case). Since a player can fumble the ball while moving his arm forward, having possession of the ball at least during part of that forward movement, and the ball moving forward, then the mechanics you listed don't always apply. Also, they don't even always apply according to the rule book during a QB attempting to pass it. A ball can be fumbled forward, as was the ruling in the NCG when Bennett was said to have fumbled the ball on an intended pass that went forward several yards.

Regardless, the rule book again states: "When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward toward the neutral zone, any intentional forward movement of the passer’s hand with the ball firmly in their control starts the forward pass unless the player clearly starts to bring the ball back with firm control to the passer’s body. If a Team B player contacts the passer or ball after forward movement begins and the ball leaves the passer’s hand, a forward pass is ruled regardless of where the ball strikes the ground or a player"

As you can see, the forward movement is regarding the arm, not the ball (so your point 3 is moot). Importantly, the bolded part assumes that it is clear that the player is holding the ball in order to pass it forward. See, it assumes a forward pass is intended. The goal-line fumbles that have happened periodically throughout history are not even assumed to be a forward pass because of the context of the ball carrier reaching the ball out to score a TD rather than intending to pass the ball. With the many, many instances of players reaching for pylons or to break the plane, you would think some discussion would be had on the matter, but it's never discussed because history is on the side of the fumble in those instances. Context matters.