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re: If a QB accidentally releases the ball on the forward motion of a pump fake
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:23 pm to RebelTheBear
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:23 pm to RebelTheBear
quote:
If that accidental pass (still a pass) is caught by a defender before it touches the ground, it is an interception.
That’s what I’m saying. The refs can’t call a forward pass a live ball just because they don’t think the ball handler intended to pass it.
2
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:27 pm to Jon Ham
There's a difference between dropping the ball and having it move forward due to momentum and actually throwing the ball forward. That's why there's a rule moving the ball back to the spot of a forward fumble on 4th down if it's recovered by the offense. Guys lose control of the ball while reaching for the goalline all the time. If there was a compelling argument to be made that those plays are actually forward passes the rules committee would have addressed it a long time ago.
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:27 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The fact that you have to compare it to an unorthodox version of a pass (shovel pass) to get it in the ball park is telling.
So what? A shovel pass counts as much as a pass as an overhand throw.
quote:
A player who fumbles a ball while extending the ball out is now passing the ball by your interpretation.
Not always, each play should be looked at on its own. For the Mizzou play, the player had full control, extended the ball forward, he wasn’t diving, and during the extension the ball was released and traveled forward.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:28 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The issue is that the rule book doesn't always account for every possible situation that could occur during the game, and leaves it up to the referees and judges to interpret the rule book according to the context on the field. Sometimes strange things happen that force consideration of clarification in the rules, or a change to the rules entirely. However this situation is not unique, nor is it new. This exact situation has occurred time and time again, and even the coaches and players who are on the losing end of a fumble ruling are not appealing and screaming for an illegal forward pass penalty to be called on the play instead.
The question is whether or not the ball is a pass or a fumble, and given that refs see passes all the time, and they see fumbles all the time, they can use context to understand the difference between the two even when some argumentative fans want to make the rules murky.
This is a fair response
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:30 pm to Robot Santa
quote:
Guys lose control of the ball while reaching for the goalline all the time.
Those are usually on a dive for the pylon type play where the ball is not released in the same motion of the forward arm extension, it’s just dropped after the arms are extended.
In the Mizzou play, it was like an unintended forward shovel pass from the standing position.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:32 pm to Jon Ham
This was amusing the first time, not so amusing now.
The ball has to move towards the line of scrimmage. Since the line of scrimmage is 20+ yards behind him, it obviously couldn't be a forward pass.
The ball has to move towards the line of scrimmage. Since the line of scrimmage is 20+ yards behind him, it obviously couldn't be a forward pass.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:33 pm to Jon Ham
quote:
So you believe a QB who throws the ball forward with a traditional throwing motion after crossing the line of scrimmage creates a live ball if the official doesn’t think he meant to pass it.
Now THAT’S a strange take.
Yeah, I’m the one with a strange take here.
You said this:
quote:
he is obviously pump faking to get a defender to jump and the ball is accidentally released
And I said if that happens 10 yards past the LOS with no receiving target in front of him, it’s a fumble. I don’t know why that’s hard for you to believe.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:34 pm to Jon Ham
quote:
That’s what I’m saying. The refs can’t call a forward pass a live ball just because they don’t think the ball handler intended to pass it.
But there is a functional difference between a QB accidentally throwing a forward pass and a ball carrier trying to break the plane of the goal line by extending the ball forward in his hands and losing the football. One of them is trying to advance the ball in the air (accidental or not, his intention was the same), and the other is trying to advance the ball on the ground. One of them is definitely trying to pass the football, and one of them is not. Use your head here - in that situation, why would the Missouri player try to pass the ball forward at the goal line while he is past the line of scrimmage and is trying to score? Rulebook be damned, that concept makes no sense.
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:34 pm to 3down10
quote:
This was amusing the first time, not so amusing now.
The ball has to move towards the line of scrimmage. Since the line of scrimmage is 20+ yards behind him, it obviously couldn't be a forward pass.
The first time a guy tried to argue that the laws of physics don’t allow a forward pass past the LOS it was amusing, now it’s just getting a little sad.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:34 pm to Jon Ham
quote:
an unintended forward shovel pass
is a fumble if it occurs past the LOS.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:35 pm to Jon Ham
quote:
The first time a guy tried to argue that the laws of physics don’t allow a forward pass past the LOS it was amusing, now it’s just getting a little sad.
It's in the rule.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:37 pm to lostinbr
quote:
And I said if that happens 10 yards past the LOS with no receiving target in front of him, it’s a fumble. I don’t know why that’s hard for you to believe.
So you’re doubling down on it? Your position is so nuts I’ll state it again for everyone here.
lostinbr believes a QB who throws the ball forward with a traditional throwing motion after crossing the line of scrimmage creates a live ball if the official doesn’t think he meant to pass it.
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:37 pm to 3down10
There are passes beyond the LOS all the time. This is the worst argument
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:40 pm to The Sultan of Swine
it's called the illegal forward pass. Not an illegal forward fumble
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:43 pm to The Sultan of Swine
quote:
There are passes beyond the LOS all the time. This is the worst argument
Sure, a forward pass is a pass towards the opposing teams goal line.
However, in this case there is no forward passing motion to signal a pass. The OP is trying to use the rule that determines if a QB has fumbled the ball, or if it was a forward pass.
In that rule, it only applies to balls going towards the line of scrimmage. AKA you don't get to call forward fumbles a forward pass.
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 12:45 pm
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:47 pm to Jon Ham
Even if it was ruled a pass attempt (ridiculous since there was no throwing motion and no Mizzou players were in the direction of the “pass”) it would be an illegal forward pass/lateral beyond the line of scrimmage. It was a fumble prior to crossing the plane and recovered by Auburn. End of game. Jesus, I can’t believe this is being discussed.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:48 pm to 3down10
I’ve seen a QB drop the ball when pump faking - fumble
I’ve seen idiots extend the ball and lose control - fumble
I’ve seen idiots shot put the ball when past LOS - illegal forward pass
By the way, in KJ’s case the ball never hit the ground - doesn’t matter what you call
I’ve seen idiots extend the ball and lose control - fumble
I’ve seen idiots shot put the ball when past LOS - illegal forward pass
By the way, in KJ’s case the ball never hit the ground - doesn’t matter what you call
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 12:49 pm
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:49 pm to Jon Ham
Is moving my finger in a trigger squeezing motion a crime? No, therefore doing it with a gun in your hand must also not be a crime
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:49 pm to 3down10
quote:
The OP is trying to use the rule that determines if a QB has fumbled the ball, or if it was a forward pass.
That rule mentions “neutral zone” in order to define what “forward” means, not to insert a requirement that one must be behind the neutral zone in order to pass (You can’t legally pass past the LOS, but you can pass).
If that rule didn’t include “neutral zone” then one could argue a QB is always throwing the ball “forward” in respect to his own position on the field.
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 12:55 pm
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