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re: If a QB accidentally releases the ball on the forward motion of a pump fake
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:36 am to Jon Ham
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:36 am to Jon Ham
quote:That's why I mentioned it.
That’s a good one to bring to this discussion.
quote:This distinction wasn't part of your argument. You said:
Here, the ball is not released in the same motion as the arm going forward - there’s a very small but identifiable gap between the forward arm movement and the release. The player has the ball extended and loses control while the ball is extended, not during the process of the extension.
1) player voluntary moving arm forward - Yes
2) player has control of the ball when moving arm forward - Yes
3) the ball travels forward after the player releases the ball - Yes
By your own qualifications, that play is a "forward pass", if we were to interpret it as you are. It's interesting that with all of the replays of that play when it occurred, there wasn't any discussion as to whether or not it could be a forward pass. It was only discussed whether or not it was a fumble or a touchdown. I wonder why that is?
quote:Not at all. The wrist movement was a response to the ball coming loose, not an action that caused the ball to come loose (a throw).
Looking closer, it looks like TN could make the argument the player had firm control in one hand and the flick of the wirst forward constitutes a “throw” since the ball traveled forward, but the motion could be argued to be more down than forward and that the ball went forward because of the player’s forward momentum not because he threw the ball forward. Interesting case.
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Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:38 am to FooManChoo
quote:
This distinction wasn't part of your argument.
I don’t think it needed to be said that extending the ball forward, holding it straight in front of you for a moment, then dropping it doesn’t qualify as a pass.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:40 am to Jon Ham
And why wasn't the RB called for a travel? He didn't dribble once.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:41 am to Jon Ham
You are onto something. KJ was clearly about to throw it deep. 
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:44 am to Jon Ham
quote:It certainly does when you are getting into the minutiae of what constitutes a pass versus a fumble.
I don’t think it needed to be said that extending the ball forward, holding it straight in front of you for a moment, then dropping it doesn’t qualify as a pass.
And look at that play more closely. As soon as he has full extension, the ball comes loose. That's precisely what happens in most QB throws a pass. Granted, the arm motion is a bit unorthodox
Face it. You are arguing a losing position and you don't want to lose (or you're trolling), so you won't let it go.
For decades, players running with the ball have been reaching for pylons and extending the ball to break the plane of the goal line, and there have been many loose balls as the result. None of them, to my knowledge, were even argued to be considered forward passes. The only argument was whether or not the player scored a touchdown or fumbled the ball. The onus is on you to show where the correct ruling is a forward pass instead of a fumble, and so far, you haven't done that.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:46 am to Irons Puppet
quote:
You are wrong. The rule stats out of the pocket and ball must go beyond the LOS. In the pocket an thrown out of bounds with no target near can be grounding.
You are confusing what constitutes a legal pass with what constitutes a pass
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:49 am to FooManChoo
I agree the play FooManChoo brought up is a good comparison.
Of course. These plays get called fumbles 100 out of 100 times. But a literal reading of the rulebook contradicts or at least leaves it vague enough to be questioned.
quote:
By your own qualifications, that play is a "forward pass", if we were to interpret it as you are. It's interesting that with all of the replays of that play when it occurred, there wasn't any discussion as to whether or not it could be a forward pass. It was only discussed whether or not it was a fumble or a touchdown. I wonder why that is?
Of course. These plays get called fumbles 100 out of 100 times. But a literal reading of the rulebook contradicts or at least leaves it vague enough to be questioned.
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 11:51 am
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:51 am to Jon Ham
quote:
If a QB would have done the same thing from the pocket
This right here is your difference.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:54 am to FooManChoo
quote:
And look at that play more closely. As soon as he has full extension, the ball comes loose.
The arm movement did not propel the ball forward, it was his forward momentum that allowed the ball to keep traveling forward when he dropped it, unless you want to talk about the wrist flick at the end which one could argue did propel the ball forward.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:56 am to Jon Ham
quote:
Let’s say he is obviously pump faking to get a defender to jump and the ball is accidentally released during the forward motion of the pump fake.
That’s a really weird scenario but OK, I’ll play.
If he is pump faking 10 yards past the LOS with no receiving target in front of him and drops the ball in the process, that’s a fumble.
If he is pump faking 10 yards past the LOS with a receiving target in front of him and drops the ball in the process, it might be an illegal forward pass but I doubt it - depends how the ref sees it. If it’s truly obvious that the QB did not intend to throw, it’s likely ruled a fumble.
If he is pump faking at the LOS (let’s say he just stepped over) the officials are likely to give him more leeway.
None of this matters because A) the RB is not the QB so there’s not nearly the same question of intent, and B) the motion of diving for the goal line looks nothing like a pump fake and can’t be misconstrued as intent to pass the ball.
If you want to use a real edge comparison case, think of a QB who rolls out on, say, 3rd & 1 and dives for the first down marker the same way the Mizzou RB dove for the goal line. Since the QB is past the LOS the question of whether he’s “attempting a shovel pass” or fumbling is going to come down to intent - was he legitimately trying to throw to a receiver? If not, it’s likely ruled a fumble.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:57 am to The Sultan of Swine
quote:The issue is that the rule book doesn't always account for every possible situation that could occur during the game, and leaves it up to the referees and judges to interpret the rule book according to the context on the field. Sometimes strange things happen that force consideration of clarification in the rules, or a change to the rules entirely. However this situation is not unique, nor is it new. This exact situation has occurred time and time again, and even the coaches and players who are on the losing end of a fumble ruling are not appealing and screaming for an illegal forward pass penalty to be called on the play instead.
Of course. These plays get called fumbles 100 out of 100 times. But a literal reading of the rulebook contradicts or at least leaves it vague enough to be questioned.
The question is whether or not the ball is a pass or a fumble, and given that refs see passes all the time, and they see fumbles all the time, they can use context to understand the difference between the two even when some argumentative fans want to make the rules murky.
It's clear that the interpretation of what a pass is does not include a loss of possession while extending the ball (rather than throwing it) to pick up more yards.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 11:58 am to Jon Ham
A few things after reading through this thread...
1. A forward pass thrown beyond the line of scrimmage is treated like any other forward pass. It can be caught or not caught, but a forward pass behind the line of scrimmage or beyond the line of scrimmage is dead if it is not caught in the air. There is a difference between throwing a pass with the intention of it being caught or not caught, and voluntarily pushing the ball forward without the intent of it getting caught or not caught. This is where your argument doesn't hold weight. You're trying to make situations like this black and white and ignore precedent. That's not an argument you're going to win.
2. Your qualifications for what makes up a forward pass are MOSTLY correct. In fact, the three items you proposed are all part of what a forward pass is defined as. The one thing you're missing is intent. The referees have been given ultimate discretion in determining a ball carrier's intent. Again, not an argument you're going to win.
3. There does not have to be a receiver on the other side of a forward or backward pass. That's why passes thrown out of bounds are legal plays. But, just like the past two points I made, intent matters.
The reason why your argument won't be taken seriously is that your argument voluntarily ignores precedent and the human aspect of football. Just like with any major judiciary body, the precedent will almost always supersede any other law.
1. A forward pass thrown beyond the line of scrimmage is treated like any other forward pass. It can be caught or not caught, but a forward pass behind the line of scrimmage or beyond the line of scrimmage is dead if it is not caught in the air. There is a difference between throwing a pass with the intention of it being caught or not caught, and voluntarily pushing the ball forward without the intent of it getting caught or not caught. This is where your argument doesn't hold weight. You're trying to make situations like this black and white and ignore precedent. That's not an argument you're going to win.
2. Your qualifications for what makes up a forward pass are MOSTLY correct. In fact, the three items you proposed are all part of what a forward pass is defined as. The one thing you're missing is intent. The referees have been given ultimate discretion in determining a ball carrier's intent. Again, not an argument you're going to win.
3. There does not have to be a receiver on the other side of a forward or backward pass. That's why passes thrown out of bounds are legal plays. But, just like the past two points I made, intent matters.
The reason why your argument won't be taken seriously is that your argument voluntarily ignores precedent and the human aspect of football. Just like with any major judiciary body, the precedent will almost always supersede any other law.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:00 pm to lostinbr
quote:
If he is pump faking 10 yards past the LOS with no receiving target in front of him and drops the ball in the process, that’s a fumble.
So you believe a QB who throws the ball forward with a traditional throwing motion after crossing the line of scrimmage creates a live ball if the official doesn’t think he meant to pass it.
Now THAT’S a strange take.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:00 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
FooManChoo
Exactly. Referees make decisions in games based on how previous referees made decisions in similar situations. No rule book for anything in life will tell you how to handle every single situation that could come about. That's why we leave some things up for interpretation.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:03 pm to Jon Ham
quote:The ball slipped out of his hand, plain and simple. That's why it was called a fumble. He lost possession of the ball and that wasn't even in dispute during the game. The only question was where there ball was when he lost possession. Did it cross the goal line or not? It wasn't even mentioned whether or not that was a forward pass.
The arm movement did not propel the ball forward, it was his forward momentum that allowed the ball to keep traveling forward when he dropped it, unless you want to talk about the wrist flick at the end which one could argue did propel the ball forward.
Regarding the momentum, yeah, his arm and body both contributed towards the ball's forward movement. That's how physics works. According to the official rule book, the issue isn't whether or not the ball was moving forward, but if the QB's hand was moving forward. There are instances where the hand moves forward and the ball moves backward, and vice versa. My point was to show how the same standard you provided (which doesn't fully align with the official rules) could be used to say that the example I provided could be considered a forward pass, when it was clearly a loss of possession (fumble).
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:07 pm to RebelTheBear
quote:
The referees have been given ultimate discretion in determining a ball carrier's intent.
So you think an official can rule the QB fumbled the ball if the QB steps past the LOS and accidentally lets go on the forward motion of a pump fake and the ball travels forward?
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:09 pm to RebelTheBear
So now we’re not even looking at the rules, just relying on “well that’s the way it’s been done before.”
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:17 pm to Jon Ham
quote:
So you think an official can rule the QB fumbled the ball if the QB steps past the LOS and accidentally lets go on the forward motion of a pump fake and the ball travels forward?
If a QB's arm is coming forward in a passing motion (a pump fake is a passing motion by definition) while the QB is in control of the ball and he lets the ball go forward, it is a forward pass. If that accidental illegal forward pass (still a pass) is caught by a defender before it touches the ground, it is an interception. If it is caught by a receiver, it can be advanced. If it is not caught, the ball is dead and the offense will be given the ball at the spot where the passer attempted the forward pass. No matter if it is caught or not, a penalty flag will be thrown and the play won't count, unless the penalty flag is declined by the opposing team.
See this excerpt from the NCAA FB Rulebook
quote:
Incomplete Pass
ARTICLE 7. a. Any forward pass is incomplete if the ball is out of bounds by
rule (Rule 4-2-3) or if it touches the ground when not firmly controlled by a
player. It also is incomplete when a player leaves their feet and receives the pass
but first lands on or outside a boundary line, unless their progress has been
stopped in the field of play or end zone (Rule 4-1-3-p) (A.R. 2-4-3-III and
A.R. 7-3-7-I).
b. When a legal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing
team at the previous spot.
c. When an illegal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing
team at the spot of the pass (Exception: If Team B declines the penalty for
an illegal pass thrown from the end zone, the ball shall next be put in play
at the previous spot.) (A.R. 7-3-7-II-III).
Edit: No, we are looking at rules. See above.
This post was edited on 9/26/22 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:18 pm to Jon Ham
quote:Not really. It's a combination of the rules as written and how they have historically been interpreted. There hasn't been a clarification needed of the difference between a runner extending (and losing control of) a ball while trying to pick up yards and bastardizing what a pass is. The fact that you have to compare it to an unorthodox version of a pass (shovel pass) to get it in the ball park is telling.
So now we’re not even looking at the rules, just relying on “well that’s the way it’s been done before.”
The problem is that actions require interpretation. Can a player be said to have passed a ball without him knowing he passed it? That's what you're allowing for by your interpretation of the rule book. A player who fumbles a ball while extending the ball out is now passing the ball by your interpretation. It both makes for unintentional passers and removes the possibility of a fumble while extending the ball forward during the process.
Posted on 9/26/22 at 12:18 pm to Jon Ham
quote:
So just to be clear, you’re saying that when a QB steps beyond the LOS and throws the ball forward and it hits the ground, it’s a live ball?
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