History Discussion Thread

I know its not football but hey, lets have fun.

Diego, Kerrygold, and Amarillo I belive we left off here.

Diego said this "The thing that created the Prussian/German war machine was the existential terror of a French army rolling over the Rhine.

Ultimately, the reason France got rolled over in WW2 was decided by the cementing of Belgium as an independent state. Belgium is basically a design feature by the rest of Europe to keep France from being able to annex and fortify the Belgian low countries thus changing the paths for invasion from the North into France.

I'm a bit less dismissive of France as a military power. However the inability to solidly claim and hold the low countries is their real failure but, in fairness, the whole of Europe was determined to never let that geographical fortress France stand for long."

Amarillo said this "Gonna have to disagree with you on why France got their asses kicked by the Germans. The French did little to change their mindset on warfare from WWI and WWII. They assumed that massive fortifications (e.g. Maginot Line) would make all the difference.

It never dawned on them those fortifications would be breached and/or flanked and because of that, they had no real answer to German blitzkrieg and rapid advances of armor and troops through those breaches.

Moreover, German weaponry was superior. Better tanks, better small arms, better artillery, better aircraft. Better trained men and superior leadership."

My thoughts: I think you're both half right. Amarillo, the "better weapons" part is iffy. The French and British had more tanks in May 1940, and the Char B1 and Somua S35 outgunned and out-armored most of what the Germans fielded. The real German edges were radios in every tank, a Luftwaffe built for close support, and concentrating their armor into panzer divisions instead of spreading it out in infantry support. The Maginot Line also did its job: it shut the direct route and pushed the Germans into Belgium, which is exactly what it was for. The failure was the Dyle plan sending the best French armies deep into Belgium, leaving the Ardennes hinge to reserve divisions, and keeping no strategic reserve at all. Once Guderian was over the Meuse at Sedan, a headquarters with no radio and a 1918 mindset just couldn't react at the speed required.

Diego, you're right that Belgian neutrality in 1936 mattered. It killed joint planning and is a big reason the Allied plan was a headlong rush north with a thin hinge behind it. But France fought 1870 and 1914 with the same map, and in 1914 it held. What changed by 1940 wasn't the geography, it was the French army's ability to move and decide. Doctrine and command lost that campaign, not walls, weapons, or borders. Love this.