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Posted on 1/10/20 at 8:59 am to Sandwich
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Gripefest (Formly know as Coaching Changes)
Posted on 1/10/20 at 10:47 am to FooManChoo
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Probably because Fromm has consistently struggled to hit Robertson on time on open deep passes.
Fromm has consistently struggled to connect with nearly all receivers this season. He did consistently connected with Cager, though, so it strikes me as odd that Fromm can be so good with one experienced receiver while bad with the others.
Was that an issue with Fromm just being bad, or was there something else there? If it were just Fromm being bad, I'd expect him to be bad with literally everyone. I'm arguing that he hasn't been consistently on the same page with our receivers all season (outside of Cager when he was healthy and Pickens with the last few games of the season).
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Thats classic Foo Frommbot spin. This is an objective and reasonable view of the play, From the QB Klassroom article:
"From a comfort and mechanics standpoint, throwing on the move doesn’t really get much easier than this. b]Fromm does a poor job of getting any velocity on this ball.[/b] He puts some air under it and floats it just far enough to make it catchable, but the ball hangs more like a punt than a pass and forces the receiver to try to catch this one while falling backwards. This ball, similar to the last clip, had a chance to be a relatively easy touchdown, but Fromm couldn’t put enough on it. In fairness to Fromm, this should have been caught anyway, but there is no argument that this was a good ball. Fromm failed his receiver as much as the receiver failed him."
You're quoting Derrik Klassen, who stared writing these sorts of articles a few years ago while in high school because he loved football. He's a sports writer with no experience with football that I can tell other than watching it on TV and reading stuff online. Hardly an expert from my perspective. I've done the same stuff and I'm certainly no expert.
With that said, here's there quote from that section that made me question his expertise: "...but the ball hangs more like a punt than a pass and forces the receiver to try to catch this one while falling backwards". He wasn't falling backwards at all while the ball was coming to him. He didn't fall backwards until he had the ball in his hands and then it looks like he slipped or tripped while trying to secure the ball; he was dragging his right foot across the ground while going to the ground and the ball came out in the process. The comment made it seem like it was an easy catch if Fromm didn't throw it in such a way that made it hard for DRob to catch it, which isn't true.
Even so, from even a casual review of the throw and catch, it's easy to see that DRob had the ball for an easy catch and he failed to secure it. Play in question.
You can criticize how much air Fromm put on the ball, forcing DRob to turn around for the catch, but in the final analysis, the ball hit an open receiver for what should have been an easy catch, and DRob simply dropped the ball.
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What is considered "Routine" for a catch depends on the route and coverage. Going from a full sprint to a backpedal spin to wait on a ball is far from routine on that route. The defender went from out of the play to into the play to catch up after he was burnt toast. That type of transition and coverage made it far more difficult than a well timed, wide open, over the shoulder catch.
Are you honestly going to argue that the ball hitting DRob in the hands on that play was harder for him than an over the shoulder catch?
Seriously, though... I explained what I meant by "routine catch". He didn't have to do anything but stick his hands out in front of him and pull the ball in. He didn't have to make any sort of drastic movements or contortions. He simply turned around and watch the ball in. He even had time to orient himself while turning around and back peddling. It wasn't a perfect throw by any means (I never claimed it was), but it was a throw on the move downfield to an open receiver who saw the ball, made his adjustments in time to make an easy catch and he failed to do it. It doesn't take an A.J. Green to make that catch but DRob failed to do his job on that play.
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Ball was not placed in the spot it needed to be for a TD. It was under thrown, as usual
What? "It wasn't placed in the spot it needed to be for a TD"? You can't be serious. It was placed exactly where it needed to be for a TD: it hit an open receiver in the hands in the end zone. The receiver was able to pull the ball to his chest and lost control of it as he was going to the ground. Say what you want about the degree of perfection with the ball, but it's entirely fallacious to say that it wasn't thrown where it needed to be for a TD.
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Another under throw was the pickens throw vs Baylor. From the Klassroom article:
"Wide receiver George Pickens is so open that the ball finds its target anyway, but Fromm left this one about five yards short and put no speed on it. If he could have gotten this ball even one step further out in front, this could have been a touchdown."
"It’s wasted and unfulfilled opportunities like that that makes Fromm frustrating. Even with a clean pocket and a wide-open receiver, Fromm only gets the completion on a play that should have fairly easily been a touchdown. "
I agree that the ball was underthrown here, but not because he doesn't have the arm strength. Fromm has thrown the ball much further than he did on the flea flicker to Pickens but has had problems being in syc with his receivers, sometimes overthrowing and sometimes overthrowning.
Klassen uses this example to point to his arm strength rather than simply being "off" on the throw to Pickens, which I think is not the issue. Klassen likely hasn't watched a ton of film on Fromm since he writes about college and NFL (and all teams, not just UGA), so I don't think he's taking the right approach to this play.
I think the better approach is trying to understand why he's not on the same page with his receivers, which has been the issue all season. To me, the answer is that the receivers haven't been disciplined on their routes and Fromm has had to try to adapt by lofting the ball a little bit more and hoping his targets can accommodate.
holy frick
Posted on 1/10/20 at 10:51 am to djsdawg
quote:That's part of it, but that wasn't the only type of throw he made to Cager. Go watch the tape again.
Because he could rely on his back shoulder throw with Cager, which is his bread and butter.
quote:Robertson hasn't done well for us overall during his time at UGA and I'm honestly not sure why that is. He didn't see a lot of playing time for us prior to this past season and when he was on the field, he didn't do much for us, even when other receivers were flourishing.
It is odd he can't connect well with Robertson in particular, who had no such issue with his previous QB.
quote:I don't subscribe to that, but why don't you tell me?
Classic Saul Alinsky tactic right here. Which rule for radical is this one?
Also, ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies. The only reason I brought up that guy's credentials was because you claimed the article was from an objective/unbiased authority as to provide weight to the criticisms of Fromm. I also provided a response to his particular arguments/statements so that I wasn't just commenting on him as person.
quote:I've got a lot of friends who are not UGA fans and they know very little about the technical aspects of football. They are sort of like you, at least as you appear to be.
Anyways, the value in the source is that he isn't a UGA fan, so he doesn't have any strong biases one way or the other.
quote:I focused on the comments that you quoted.
That comment you are focusing on was beside the point.
quote:Apparently you (and the sidewalk analyst who gets paid for his opinions) don't understand what a "good" pass is. There's a difference between a good pass and a perfect pass, and context certainly dictates how good is good, but whatever you want to call it, Fromm delivered a ball to his intended target in the end zone in a way that could be easily caught for points and the receiver dropped the ball. It wasn't a hard catch from the looks of it. It was tracked appropriately and caught, just not secured.
The point is the that Fromm failed to deliver a good pass to a wide open WR.
quote:Only the most biased Fromm detractor would blame the QB for missing out on points on that play, so classic djsdawg here.
Only the most biased Fromm supporter would not be able to admit that, so Classic Foo here.
See how that works?
quote:1. DRob had plenty of time to adjust. You might have a point if he had to stop on a dime and come back for the ball within a second, but that wasn't the case. The ball hung up in the air long enough for DRob to track it and make his adjustments with plenty of time.
2 things make it much harder than a routine wide open catch:
1. Having to adjust from full sprint to backpedal.
2. Letting late coverage converge from an odd angle.
Your inability to understand that is fascinating. Is that a symptom of your Fromm Derangement Syndrome?
A bad pass added those unnecessary difficulties to the completion of the play.
2. The late coverage converging wasn't there in time to impact DRob's vision, nor did it provide a physical barrier to catching the ball. You even mentioned that it was "from an odd angle". That odd angle meant that he wasn't getting in DRob's sight line. It allowed him to track the ball all the way to his hands.
The defender also didn't interfere with the ball as it was being caught. There were no hands in the way. The ball wasn't tipped. He didn't hit DRob or have a hand on him during the process of catching the ball. The only ability he had to impact the play was a push on DRob's helmet as he was going to the ground. By that point, the ball was already caught and in the process of being secured and there's no reason to believe that such a minor "hit" would have had any impact on the ability of DRob to secure the ball.
DRob is at fault for not being able to secure a ball that was thrown right to him without anyone in the way to prevent him from seeing or catching the ball. There were no unnecessary difficulties there. In fact, it appears to be an easier catch for a receiver than a perfect back shoulder throw in the corner of the end zone. Those catches require a lot of focus, good leverage, a good route, and good hands to haul in from behind compared to the throw to Drob, which was the equivalent to playing catch with your dad.
And no, I don't have FDS because I can still rationalize my position.
quote:Ah, that was my mistake (which I freely admit). I was still thinking about the Drob play.
Talking about the first pass to Simmons.
That said, Simmons may have been able to get a TD on that catch, even if it wasn't likely. As I stated previously, he didn't "dive" for the ball; he looked like he panicked when the ball went through his hands and he then was trying to go to the ground to get it. The defender making a play on the ball was diving, and if Simmons catches it, it's possible the defender misses and Simmons can keep running. It's also likely that he gets tackled for a big gain, but really my point was that if the ball is caught there, at worst we have a huge pickup and the bad pass that occurred a couple of plays later doesn't happen and thus is not a topic of discussion.
quote:I mentioned the loft for two reasons: 1. Klassen was the one who mentioned the arm strength issue and 2. Fromm appears to have lofted more against Baylor to fix timing issues with his receivers that caused overthrows in previous games.
Loft wasnt the issue on this play, as it was on the Robertson play. Point is, he failed to deliver a good pass to an open WR AGAIN.
You're right that Fromm wasn't delivering good passes, but what I'm arguing is that the reason why he wasn't is primarily due to our receivers not doing their jobs and forcing him to adjust with balls with more air under them than the darts that would go over their heads.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 10:53 am to dhuck20
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holy frick
Now I need glasses.
We need a thread named, "Argue the past." That way people can continue beating this dog food in perpetuity.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 10:58 am to chillmonster
Maybe if I started a thread titled "Jake Fromm: Best QB in UGA history?" I could bait Foo, djs, and HT to consolidate it all in that thread.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 11:00 am to chillmonster
This horse is so fricking dead.
Also...if this is any indication of what the players read across all of social media I’m surprised any of them stay any longer than they have to.
Also...if this is any indication of what the players read across all of social media I’m surprised any of them stay any longer than they have to.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 11:01 am to chillmonster
A troll who clearly doesn’t know frick all about football arguing about stuff they don’t understand and then using every type of argument fallacy once challenged with facts. Everyone just needs to ignore it.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 11:13 am to Peter Buck
At this point, I'm trying to waste his time. I enjoy arguing and debating so it's no skin off my back, but I agree that it's not likely pleasant to subject the rest of the board to.
I'll see if I can redirect my efforts elsewhere for a while and let the sheep bleat to themselves.
I'll see if I can redirect my efforts elsewhere for a while and let the sheep bleat to themselves.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 11:25 am to Peter Buck
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then using every type of argument fallacy
These are pretty big words for a poster suffering from CTrollE. Let’s see this big list of fallacies you speak of. Try to bring something of substance rather than this troll trash.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 11:29 am to djsdawg
Tell us about your football experience.
Posted on 1/10/20 at 11:42 am to Peter Buck
Look at that, the troll delivers Another unsubstantial and irrelevant response to the discussion. Tell us your opinion about the plays we are discussing if you can turn down that CTrollE of yours.
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