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re: Wishbone Offense: When do you remember last seeing it in CFB/NFL?
Posted on 7/11/20 at 12:00 pm to mulletproof
Posted on 7/11/20 at 12:00 pm to mulletproof
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The wishbone was put a hat on a hat and out man the other team or wait for an exceptional athlete to make a big play or an exceptional coach to make a big play
This is almost, but not quite, exactly unlike what the wishbone tried to do. In fact, if it required an exceptional athlete, it would be a horrible offense for under-talented teams like the service academies.
The blocking plan is designed around leaving one player unblocked and force him to make a decision on who to attempt to tackle before the quarterback has to make a decision as to where the ball is going. When you watch Navy or Army run it, watch how often the ball ends up behind the back of the defensive end. Pre-snap, the quarterback reads the middle linebacker; if he is cheating outside, the option is to go to the fullback dive. If that play is working for 4 yards consistently, they will do it all day long.
To make it effective, a team has to commit to it. Show the same formation all day, and pick out defensive players who they can force into bad decisions.
It does require highly mobile offensive linemen. It also utilizes some blocking schemes that have been made illegal.
This post was edited on 7/11/20 at 12:02 pm
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Posted on 7/11/20 at 12:21 pm to Thorny
quote:
When you watch Navy or Army run it,
Neither of those teams run the wishbone.
Posted on 7/11/20 at 12:27 pm to RD Dawg
Air Force ran the wishbone for years.
Posted on 7/11/20 at 12:50 pm to RD Dawg
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Neither of those teams run the wishbone.
The Flexbone they do run is a variant where the half-backs are positioned as h-backs off the line outside the tackle. This allows a few things:
1. It allows for a second split end, balancing the formation.
2. It allows for an H-back to go in motion, which helps the quarterback read the defense.
3. It allows for a team to run 4-verts occasionally enough to keep the safeties honest.
The basic mid-line option read principles are the same as the wishbone.
Posted on 7/11/20 at 1:16 pm to Thorny
As far as passing out of the wishbone, old Arky fans will remember 4th and 3 in '69.
Posted on 7/11/20 at 2:16 pm to RD Dawg
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Relevant reading, but as stated previously Miami's defenses of that time were hardly representative of the rest of 1-A LINK ?
Good article.
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So the reason these teams stopped running it was because coaches retired?
No idea it was such a nuanced a complicated offense.
Most innovations (not just in sports but in science, business, etc.) come from young minds taking what they have learned from previous generations and improving it.
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And they were 29-5-2 from '86-'88 without the wishbone.WTF is your point?
That the wishbone was still effective at major programs in its last days, and it was.
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Royal retired in '76 and Bryant in '82. WTH does this have to the offense dying in the late 80's?WTF is your point?
Because you have it in your mind the wishbone was ineffective in the '80s, which is inaccurate.
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BTW speaking of Switzer,what was his record vs Miami in the 80's? INCLUDING his
'85 NC team?
0-3.
What was his record against everyone else? 33-0. What was Miami's record against everyone else? 32-3.
And what about Penn State in '85-'86? They were 23-1 and played for the national title in B2B years. You know who they beat for a national title? Miami. You know who they lost to for a national title? Oklahoma.
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And played in the powerhouse big 8 and their only rival (Nebraska) could barley win their bowls games.
Maybe they would have won a few more bowl games if they could have played them on their home field like Miami did five times from '83-'94, including three of its national championship teams.
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So let me get this straight,the reason for the death of the wishbone has NOTHING to do with speeder defenses and everything to
do with the retirement of coaches who had success with it in the 70' and 80's, correct?
Mostly.
But things change. They always do. No one today is running '90s offenses, either. No one is under center running Belly option like Tom Osborne's teams that won three national titles in the mid '90s.
Posted on 7/12/20 at 2:33 am to Globetrotter747
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Relevant reading, but as stated previously Miami's defenses of that time were hardly representative of the rest of 1-A LINK ?
And the example I pointed was Miami's worst defense of the Johnson/Erickson era
and still held the #1 ranked team with the
Heisman trophy winner to under 150 yards rushing and 18 points. The same defense that gave up 25 ppg and ended up 79th in scoring Hell,look at the '85 defense that beat OU's NC team. It gave up an AVERAGE of 32+ points to the 3 other ranked teams it played (UF,FSU,UT) Kinda strange that the only ranked team they were able to stuff (OU) ran the wishbone.
Just coincidence,right?
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Most innovations (not just in sports but in science, business, etc.) come from young minds taking what they have learned from previous generations and improving it.
So bringing back the wishbone and somehow improving on it (whatever that means) is an innovation?
Why not the "T" formation or the Notre Dame Box? Just tweak em a little, right?
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That the wishbone was still effective at major programs in its last days, and it was
Switzer's last offense at OU scored a little over 5 points per game in his 3 losses.The ONLY ranked team they scored more than a TD against was Oklahoma State.
Bama's)/Bear's last wishbone team went 8-4
Darryl Royal's last team went 5-5-1 and Texas ditched the wishbone the following year and went 11-1 with mostly the I formation. Sorry,for blowing up your narrative with facts.Not ONE of the traditional powers you pointed to PLUS Auburn had a top 10 finish in their final year with the wishbone and 2 finished unranked.
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Because you have it in your mind the wishbone was ineffective in the '80s, which is inaccurate
So now you're a mind reader? Impressive.
Never once did I say this but it was merely the beginning of the end in the 80's and I've given irrefutable evidence that it was and in some cases (Texas) it died in the late 70's.
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You know who they beat for a national title? Miami. You know who they lost to for a national title? Oklahoma.
So now you're using a transitive property argument in DIFFERENT years to bolster your point.Beyond laughable
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Maybe they would have won a few more bowl games if they could have played them on their home field like Miami did five times from '83-'94, including three of its national championship teams
Maybe but Nebraska went 2-9 in bowls between '83 and '93 and lost in the Citrus and Fiesta as well as the Orange.Thd had ONE decisive bowl victory (LSU '87) in 11
years.
[
quote:.
No one is under center running Belly option like Tom Osborne's teams that won three national titles in the mid '90s.
Why do you keep bringing this up? It's completely irrelevant to the wishbone argument. Option football will always be around with more efficient ways to run it.
Top P5 coaches are making $5 million plus in salary and top OC's are making $1 million plus to WIN games.Dont ya think for a SECOND at least ONE of em would bring back the wishbone if it was still a viable and successful offense?
Posted on 7/12/20 at 7:16 am to Globetrotter747
quote:
And the example I pointed was Miami's worst defense of the Johnson/Erickson era
and still held the #1 ranked team with the
Heisman trophy winner to under 150 yards rushing and 18 points.
Your point seems to be that moving the ball well enough to be routinely beat the mid/late '80s Miami Hurricanes is the minimum standard to consider an offensive system effective.
1984 Auburn finished 9-4 and ranked #14, a year after they finished 11-1 and #3 and many people would say they were screwed out of a national title. Oklahoma finished 9-2-1 in 1984, tying #1 Texas, beating #1 Nebraska, and having a shot at the national title in the Orange Bowl before winning it the next year.
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So bringing back the wishbone and somehow improving on it (whatever that means) is an innovation?
Variants of the wishbone still exist today.
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Sorry,for blowing up your narrative with facts.Not ONE of the traditional powers you pointed to PLUS Auburn had a top 10 finish in their final year with the wishbone and 2 finished unranked.
High standards for the wishbone here.
1. Darrell Royal: Finished finished 41-15-1 in his last five seasons. He won two national titles in his best years and never had a losing season. Texas has won just one national title in the 45 years since he retired while running "super action packed non-wishbone" offenses.
2. Bear Bryant: Finished 50-9-1 in his last five seasons. He won two national titles in that span. It would be ten years before Alabama would win another national title running a "super action packed non-wishbone" offense.
3. Barry Switzer: Finished 51-8-1 in his last five years running the wishbone. He won a national title in that span and played for another. It would be twelve years before Oklahoma would win another national title running a "super action packed non-wishbone" offense.
Just abysmal. Thank God for Fred Akers, Ray Perkins, and Gary Gibbs.
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Maybe but Nebraska went 2-9 in bowls between '83 and '93 and lost in the Citrus and Fiesta as well as the Orange.Thd had ONE decisive bowl victory (LSU '87) in 11
years.
So answer me this question. I'm curious.
Oklahoma owned Tom Osborne's Nebraska teams in the Switzer era of the '70s and '80s. Nebraska also struggled to beat Miami and Florida State in bowl games in the '80s, losing four times to those two programs.
But Nebraska turned it around in the mid '90s and won three national national titles, beating Miami (with Warren Sapp and Ray Lewis), Florida (with Steve Spurrier and Danny Wuerffel), and Tennessee (with Peyton Manning and Jamal Lewis) in bowl games in that span.
They were running the same I based option that got its arse kicked so many times in big games in the '70s and '80s. With all this Fast Forward defensive speed you keep talking about emerging in the mid/late '80s that drove the wishbone to extinction, how did Nebraska emerge as the premier program during this time? Will speed shut down the triple option but not the belly option because that's the play Tommie Frazier scored on in the Fiesta Bowl when he ran over half the state of Florida.
Thrall me with your acumen.
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Top P5 coaches are making $5 million plus in salary and top OC's are making $1 million plus to WIN games.Dont ya think for a SECOND at least ONE of em would bring back the wishbone if it was still a viable and successful offense?
Winning in college football is about recruiting, not schemes. Blue chip players aren't going to play for a wishbone team, but the service academies still give teams fits with similar offenses. Hell, a few years ago Georgia Southern beat Florida without completing a single pass and scored more points on Alabama's awesome 2011 defense than anyone else and only had 39 passing yards. They rushed for over 300 yards.
Do I think a very well coached wishbone offense with the hand picked five star recruits that programs like Clemson, Alabama and Ohio State get every year could win running the wishbone if the players bought into it? Yes. Would they be as good as they are in their current schemes? No. But they also wouldn't be as good running what Miami or any other program did in the '80s. I can remember plain as day seeing Michael Irvin split wide in three point stance for Miami. A WR coach teaching that technique in 2020 would get laughed out of the profession.
Posted on 7/12/20 at 9:40 am to Globetrotter747
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Winning in college football is about recruiting, not schemes
Gee,tell that to LSU. Of COURSE you have to scheme... honestly didn't think your points could get more absurd but somehow you always manage to out do yourself.
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but the service academies still give teams fits with similar offenses. Hell, a few years ago Georgia Southern beat Florida
Geez,for the 4th freakin time.THIS
IS ABOUT THE WISHBONE offense not "similar" offenses.How many times have I stated this?
Teams developed a MORE EFFICIENT (3 rd time I've said this) option offenses hence the reason none of those teams mentioned ran the wishbone.
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Alabama's awesome 2011 defense than anyone else and only had 39 passing yards. They rushed for over 300 yards.
Honestly WTF does this have to do the wishbone offenses of the 70's and 80's?
It's like comparing T formation option teams (yes teams ran the option before the wishbone) in the 50's to wishbone teams of the 70's.
Why do you keep dying on this
quote:hill?
how did Nebraska emerge as the premier program during this time? Will speed shut down the triple option but not the belly option because that's the play Tommie Frazier scored on in the Fiesta Bowl when he ran over half the state of Florida.
Here we go again.You continually bring up teams that had nothing to do with wishbone offenses of 70's and 80's to somehow make your point.
quote:I don't see how you can't understand my point and it's the
Your point seems to be that moving the ball well enough to be routinely beat the mid/late '80s Miami Hurricanes is the minimum standard to consider an offensive system effective.
reason I gave you an example of one of their worst defenses which continually try to conflate with their better defenses.
quote:
Oklahoma finished 9-2-1 in 1984, tying #1 Texas, beating #1 Nebraska, and having a shot at the national title in the Orange Bowl before winning it the next year.
How many times are gonna say this? Oklahoma stopped running the wishbone 5 years later and by Oklahoma standards it wasn't a successful ending. They couldn't score more than 1 TD vs the 3 top 10 opponents they faced.Is this really your defenition of a successful OU offense? Once again both Bama and Texas both ended unranked the last year they ran the wishbone.
quote:
Variants of the wishbone still exist today.
"Varients" of the T formation,power I and ND box offense still exist today.
Geez you're thick.
You obviously don't understand the difference between the wishbone offenses of the 70's and 80's and the flex bone and other modern options offenses of today so this discussion is pointless.
I'm done..
Posted on 7/12/20 at 9:57 am to Globetrotter747
quote:
Osborne didn't start winning big in the '90s because his offensive scheme was better or significantly different than before. He just had better players running it. His defenses also became speedier and that helped him better defend passing teams than they did in previous years.
Osborne changed recruiting tactics and started allowing some - let's call them questionable - characters play on his teams. Their 1995 team was incredible. It was also basically a branch of the Nebraska state penitentiary.
Posted on 7/12/20 at 2:01 pm to boudinman
I remember a game between Kansas and OU back then. Kansas scored 30 points, had 500 yards total offense and 31 first downs and lost 75-30. OU ran for like 600 yards. Unfreakinreal.
Posted on 7/12/20 at 9:42 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
Gee,tell that to LSU. Of COURSE you have to scheme... honestly didn't think your points could get more absurd but somehow you always manage to out do yourself.
Schemes are important and certainly make a big difference, but they are not nearly as important to winning as players.
quote:
Geez,for the 4th freakin time.THIS
IS ABOUT THE WISHBONE offense not "similar" offenses.How many times have I stated this?
Teams developed a MORE EFFICIENT (3 rd time I've said this) option offenses hence the reason none of those teams mentioned ran the wishbone.
Explain how the Notre Dame, Colorado and Nebraska option schemes that dominated college football with five national titles from 1988-1997 were "more efficient" than the Wishbone teams that won eight national titles from 1969-1985?
What was so advanced about their schemes? How were they immune to all the defensive speed that you believe sent the Wishbone into extinction? Nebraska's I option that dominated the mid '90s was awful in the '80s against elite defenses.
Explain it all to me.
quote:
I don't see how you can't understand my point and it's the
reason I gave you an example of one of their worst defenses which continually try to conflate with their better defenses.
So the Wishbone wasn't any good because Auburn lost by two points to Miami in 1984? It doesn't matter that they still won nine games and scored 42 pts. against an FSU team that gave up only 3 pts. to that same Miami team? It's just that one game?
In your mind, it's the Wishbone vs. 1984-1987 Miami and the peak success of every other offense that any other team ran in the 1980s.
Why wasn't Oklahoma's offense as good as Georgia's in 1980? Why wasn't Oklahoma's offense as good as Nebraska's in 1983? Why wasn't Oklahoma's offense as good as BYU's in 1984? Why wasn't Oklahoma's offense as good as Miami's in 1987?
You compare Wishbone teams to the best of the best of the best of the best on both sides of the ball and if they didn't go undefeated as the top scoring team every year, well, they just sucked.
Crazy high standards.
quote:
How many times are gonna say this? Oklahoma stopped running the wishbone 5 years later and by Oklahoma standards it wasn't a successful ending. They couldn't score more than 1 TD vs the 3 top 10 opponents they faced.Is this really your defenition of a successful OU offense? Once again both Bama and Texas both ended unranked the last year they ran the wishbone.
Royal, Bryant, and Switzer won a combined three national titles if you take just their last five years in coaching. How many programs would take 3 national titles in 15 seasons? Texas and Oklahoma sure as hell would because they haven't won but two combined national titles since Royal and Switzer retired 44 and 32 years ago!
Were their very last years their best years? No, but they weren't bad either and how many coaches ride off into the sunset a national champion?
quote:
You obviously don't understand the difference between the wishbone offenses of the 70's and 80's and the flex bone and other modern options offenses of today so this discussion is pointless.
I understand there's more to an offense than its formations. The principles of the Wishbone still exist today. In fact, I would argue that principles of the Wishbone, Veer and Wing-T are more prevalent in today's game (due to athletic QB's and more versatile skill players that can play split or in the backfield) than they were 20 years ago. They just do it all from the Gun now.
Posted on 7/12/20 at 10:17 pm to Globetrotter747
OU has traditionally achieved very high levels of success with elite, but incomplete teams. This millennium, the BigXII has a reputation which OU really represents: all offense, no defense. Back then, OU actually played respectable defense but their passing game was very lacking.
Folks say Jimmy Johnson's Tampa-2 broke the Wishbone. Jimmy Johnson had the privilege of being on Swizter's staff beforehand; along with NFL defenses.
As awesome as the 'bone was, we still haven't seen it really reach its potential. OU's implementation had excellent tactical decision makers and athletes, but they weren't tossing play action passes, screens or airing it out much. Nebraska's I-Form Triple Option teams would beat you in the air if you offered too much resistance to the run.
It's been a generation now since the true wishbone went away, the defensive blue-print for stopping it is different from what works on the 21st Century Flexbone attacks. If someone installs it with the contemporary ecoutrements like: constraint bubble screens, RPO's and newer blocking schematics, they could be a force with which to be reckoned.
Folks say Jimmy Johnson's Tampa-2 broke the Wishbone. Jimmy Johnson had the privilege of being on Swizter's staff beforehand; along with NFL defenses.
As awesome as the 'bone was, we still haven't seen it really reach its potential. OU's implementation had excellent tactical decision makers and athletes, but they weren't tossing play action passes, screens or airing it out much. Nebraska's I-Form Triple Option teams would beat you in the air if you offered too much resistance to the run.
It's been a generation now since the true wishbone went away, the defensive blue-print for stopping it is different from what works on the 21st Century Flexbone attacks. If someone installs it with the contemporary ecoutrements like: constraint bubble screens, RPO's and newer blocking schematics, they could be a force with which to be reckoned.
Posted on 7/12/20 at 10:45 pm to Woodreaux
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Folks say Jimmy Johnson's Tampa-2 broke the Wishbone. Jimmy Johnson had the privilege of being on Swizter's staff beforehand; along with NFL defenses.
1. Johnson was 0-5 against the OU Wishbone when he was at OSU. His Miami defenses stopped every offensive scheme with NFL ready talent.
2. Johnson wasn't on Switzer's staff. He was on Chuck Fairbanks' staff. They were both assistants at OU in the early '70s.
3. Johnson didn't coach in the NFL until he went to the Cowboys in '89.
quote:
As awesome as the 'bone was, we still haven't seen it really reach its potential. OU's implementation had excellent tactical decision makers and athletes, but they weren't tossing play action passes, screens or airing it out much.
They were beginning to when Troy Aikman was the QB in '85.
quote:
Nebraska's I-Form Triple Option teams would beat you in the air if you offered too much resistance to the run.
1. Nebraska did not run the triple option.
2. No, Nebraska never threw the ball particularly well. They threw it better than Oklahoma, but they weren't as potent in the running game.
Posted on 7/12/20 at 11:08 pm to Globetrotter747
Former LSU coach Gerry DiNardo is credited with devising the Colorado "I-bone" attack that they were using at their heyday. He brought it to Vandy for a few years (it made them somewhat competitive) Didn't use it that much at LSU, despite Herb Tyler being a terrific running QB iirc LINK
quote:
"The wishbone in particular became a service-academy offense because the major programs running it could no longer recruit the great quarterback, the great running back, the great left tackle," says DiNardo. "When we were running it at Colorado, I can't tell you how many programs beat us up in recruiting by telling kids, ‘You won't be able to play in the NFL because you won't be learning the passing game.' And eventually most of the option teams just caved in, and it gradually went away."
Posted on 7/12/20 at 11:12 pm to Globetrotter747
quote:
1. Johnson was 0-5 against the OU Wishbone when he was at OSU. His Miami defenses stopped every offensive scheme with NFL ready talent.
A coach has better success with better talent. Stop the press!
quote:
2. Johnson wasn't on Switzer's staff. He was on Chuck Fairbanks' staff. They were both assistants at OU in the early '70s.
I think you're right.
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3. Johnson didn't coach in the NFL until he went to the Cowboys in '89.
Yes that is correct, he coached at Miami BEFORE going to the NFL. At Miami he that "NFL ready talent" that you acknowledged in your #1.
It is common knowledge those Miami defenses were professional talent, and referring to a Saturday FB part of a roster as an "NFL" defense/receiving corps/o-line has been a common expression since the Twentieth Century.
quote:
1. Nebraska did not run the triple option.
Posted on 7/13/20 at 3:40 am to Globetrotter747
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His Miami defenses stopped every offensive scheme with NFL ready talent.
They did in '84 when they finished 79 in scoring defense?
How bout his '85 defense that gave 35 to UF and UT and 27 to FSU? But they were still able to stop Switzer's NC offense...the only ranked team that they held to under 27 pts.
Not all his defenses were created equal.
Posted on 7/13/20 at 4:08 am to Woodreaux
quote:
we still haven't seen it really reach its potential
Yes,we have
quote:
but they weren't tossing play action passes, screens or airing it out much.
Gee,I wonder why? You ever watched a true wishbone throw screen pass? EVERY play is predicated off the run.How in the world is a screen pass gonna be effective when there's zero reason to have defensive push
to rush a passer?
The play action can be effective but it's unbelievably risky to start pass play with
a QB faking an option going towards the D-line. He better have a wide open receiver
and better be able to get rid of the ball in a split second... the window is incredibly small.
There's a reason there are better and more efficient option offenses than the wishbone.
Posted on 7/13/20 at 4:46 am to Globetrotter747
Downvote was a late night/early morning scrolling accident. I actually agreed with everything you said.
Posted on 7/13/20 at 5:55 am to Globetrotter747
quote:
1985 Oklahoma was the last national champion to run the Wishbone. They were still very strong up until Barry Switzer left following the 1988 season. That’s when the Wishbone died at the elite level of college football.
Troy Aikman was the starting qb for that 85 team and was injured vs Miami as the Sooners lost. Holieway took over and the rest is history. Spencer Tillman was the primary rb on that team. As much as I liked watching that Sooner team, I have to admit. I preferred the JC Watts/Billy Sims iteration more. Sims was magical.
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