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re: Richt vs Kirby after 3 years
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:45 am to bigDgator
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:45 am to bigDgator
Richt vs Florida is a big part of the story and the difference between him and Kirby. Richt best season was 2002 when Georgia's lone loss was to an 8-5 Florida team. Kirby has shown Florida has no such magic.
Another part of Richt's downfall was his failure to realize that games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage. He got great recruits, but never put together a decent offensive line. Again, this is something Kirby has emphasized.
My guess is that Kirby has longer lasting success. But it's a guess.
Another part of Richt's downfall was his failure to realize that games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage. He got great recruits, but never put together a decent offensive line. Again, this is something Kirby has emphasized.
My guess is that Kirby has longer lasting success. But it's a guess.
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Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:48 am to SummerOfGeorge
How big is the gap between the #5 recruiting class and the #2 or #3 class? Not much if any.
There isn't one iota of difference between Richt and Kirby at this point. They are the same person.
There isn't one iota of difference between Richt and Kirby at this point. They are the same person.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:48 am to Irons Puppet
quote:
What did the SECE look like Richt's first three seasons ?
2001 - Tennessee was a SECCG F-up away from playing for the NC. Two SEC East Teams (UF & UF) finished in the AP top 5.
2002 - SEC East was down except for UGA.
2003 - SEC East wasn't horrible (3 teams in top 25).
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:57 am to Jake_LaMotta
quote:
There isn't one iota of difference between Richt and Kirby at this point. They are the same person.
Thanks for the compliment. Early richt was awesome, which means even you think early smart is awesome.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:02 am to bigDgator
Agree. Richt would still be at UGA if we beat UF in 2015
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:08 am to armtackledawg
And McElwain's undoing was UGa in 2017. Along with his own big mouth.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:18 am to Jake_LaMotta
These recruiting rankings can be deceiving when you get right down to it. Conversation starters. Got to have good players but Lungbill and these guys don’t know what’s best for a team, their system and how they plan to use that kid.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:20 am to Irons Puppet
quote:
The fact that he is 4-5 against the West shows he is lucky to play in the East.
East had a better head to head and had 3 teams finish in the top 12.
The 2nd best team in the west was shutout by Bama by 29 pts.Bama STEAMROLLED the west and UGA gave them their only real game til the NC.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:23 am to SummerOfGeorge
I love this discussion for two reasons:
1. People forget how much talent Jim Donnan left Richt. Those 2001 and 2002 teams were loaded with upper-classmen on the OL, including future NFL’ers at both tackle positions, Center, and at least one guard spot. Richt had NFL talent at TB, TE, and WR. First round talent at LB, on the DL, and in the secondary. If anything, Richt’s management of recruiting early on, with the success of 2002 team should have been a warning sign. The changeover to nearly an all freshman offensive line in 2003 pretty much kept UGA from winning the SEC and maybe more.
2. Had Richt maintained 2002-2005 level success for 15 years he’d either still be coaching or be UGA’s most successful coach ever. Dude simply could not manage a roster and he benefitted heavily from talent stockpiled by his predecessor. If anything, Kirby is going the exact opposite in that he is rebuilding depth from Richt’s last years. He caught a flash in the pan in 2017 with Michel, Chubb, Wimms, and a few Key other guys. Everybody got impatient then - but Kirby is still young, young, young in his coaching career.
1. People forget how much talent Jim Donnan left Richt. Those 2001 and 2002 teams were loaded with upper-classmen on the OL, including future NFL’ers at both tackle positions, Center, and at least one guard spot. Richt had NFL talent at TB, TE, and WR. First round talent at LB, on the DL, and in the secondary. If anything, Richt’s management of recruiting early on, with the success of 2002 team should have been a warning sign. The changeover to nearly an all freshman offensive line in 2003 pretty much kept UGA from winning the SEC and maybe more.
2. Had Richt maintained 2002-2005 level success for 15 years he’d either still be coaching or be UGA’s most successful coach ever. Dude simply could not manage a roster and he benefitted heavily from talent stockpiled by his predecessor. If anything, Kirby is going the exact opposite in that he is rebuilding depth from Richt’s last years. He caught a flash in the pan in 2017 with Michel, Chubb, Wimms, and a few Key other guys. Everybody got impatient then - but Kirby is still young, young, young in his coaching career.
This post was edited on 5/6/19 at 11:24 am
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:26 am to bigDgator
quote:
Along with his own big mouth.
His mouth probably saved UF's program. Imagine how far behind the curve UF would be if you would've kept him for one more season
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:41 am to ibldprplgld
quote:
Those early Richt teams were intimidating, well coached teams. Kirby doesn't seem to have that same swag, IMO.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:45 am to armtackledawg
quote:
Richt would still be at UGA if we beat UF in 2015
Nope. Fired in 2016 for sure.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:51 am to SummerOfGeorge
SummerOfGeorge. I may be looking at different recruiting rankings than you did for your numbers. I have listed the 247 composite ranking for the classes, where they were in comparison nationally, the conference, and the East. Kirby is recruiting at a completely different level than Richt did his first few years (as stated). This holds true for where we sit in the recruiting rankings compared to the SEC East and compared to the conference as a whole.
The SEC is a Jimmy and Joes and line of scrimmage league. Richt inherited SEC offensive and defensive lines from Donnan, Kirby didn’t and has re-built our lines from scratch. Richt followed the Bowden blueprint and always thought of the offensive line as a plug and play system. Our o-line variance in performance over his tenure shows that. Sam Pittman's O-line is completely different philosophically and recruiting wise than Richt ever had for his o-line. The conference was evenly distributed with talent when Richt took over. Today Bama is sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and has the national championships to show for it.
I do agree with Seth on the difference in Administrative support. There is a night and day difference today compared to what Richt saw at any point in his tenure. Another point in his article is VanGorder was considered the hammer to Mark Richt's nice guy tactics. When VanGorder left we replaced him with a overmatched coordinator in Willie Martinez. I don't think that is going to be a issue under Kirby because he is the hammer. If anything he may have to hire the nice guy coordinators to offset his style.
I was very excited back in the early Richt years for the potential at UGA. Looking in the rear view mirror it's plain to see Richt's failings as the UGA coach. He did not value the trenches like Kirby does, he struggled at closing out recruiting classes, and the roster management was beyond sub-par. Looking at Kirby's teams none of these concerns are there anymore and I think as a program we are in a completely different spot entering year four than we were under Richt. The crazy thing is I didn't realize it at the time with Richt but I do now seeing how Kirby has built this UGA team.
Recruiting ranking 247 composite
Richt
2001 (LSU, UT, AU, Ark, UGA) 10th Nationally, 5th in SEC, 2nd in East
2002 (UT, UGA, UF) 9th Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 2nd in East
2003 (UF, LSU, UGA, UT) 9th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
2004 (LSU, UF, UGA, UT) 7th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
Smart
2016 (Bama, LSU, OM, UGA, AU, UF, UT) 7th Nationally, 4th in SEC, 1st in East
2017 (Bama, UGA, LSU, AU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
2018 (UGA, Bama, AU, UF, LSU) 1st Nationally, 1st in SEC, 1st in East
2019 (Bama, UGA, TAMU, LSU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
The SEC is a Jimmy and Joes and line of scrimmage league. Richt inherited SEC offensive and defensive lines from Donnan, Kirby didn’t and has re-built our lines from scratch. Richt followed the Bowden blueprint and always thought of the offensive line as a plug and play system. Our o-line variance in performance over his tenure shows that. Sam Pittman's O-line is completely different philosophically and recruiting wise than Richt ever had for his o-line. The conference was evenly distributed with talent when Richt took over. Today Bama is sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and has the national championships to show for it.
I do agree with Seth on the difference in Administrative support. There is a night and day difference today compared to what Richt saw at any point in his tenure. Another point in his article is VanGorder was considered the hammer to Mark Richt's nice guy tactics. When VanGorder left we replaced him with a overmatched coordinator in Willie Martinez. I don't think that is going to be a issue under Kirby because he is the hammer. If anything he may have to hire the nice guy coordinators to offset his style.
I was very excited back in the early Richt years for the potential at UGA. Looking in the rear view mirror it's plain to see Richt's failings as the UGA coach. He did not value the trenches like Kirby does, he struggled at closing out recruiting classes, and the roster management was beyond sub-par. Looking at Kirby's teams none of these concerns are there anymore and I think as a program we are in a completely different spot entering year four than we were under Richt. The crazy thing is I didn't realize it at the time with Richt but I do now seeing how Kirby has built this UGA team.
Recruiting ranking 247 composite
Richt
2001 (LSU, UT, AU, Ark, UGA) 10th Nationally, 5th in SEC, 2nd in East
2002 (UT, UGA, UF) 9th Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 2nd in East
2003 (UF, LSU, UGA, UT) 9th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
2004 (LSU, UF, UGA, UT) 7th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
Smart
2016 (Bama, LSU, OM, UGA, AU, UF, UT) 7th Nationally, 4th in SEC, 1st in East
2017 (Bama, UGA, LSU, AU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
2018 (UGA, Bama, AU, UF, LSU) 1st Nationally, 1st in SEC, 1st in East
2019 (Bama, UGA, TAMU, LSU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
This post was edited on 5/6/19 at 12:10 pm
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:58 am to WG_Dawg
quote:
so playing average oppoentns and bowl participants and having more success is seen as a "better coach and team" than playing stiffer competition and bigger/better bowl opponents? That doesn't make any sense. The 2017 team that lost in the NCG to bama isn't worse than our 03 team that beat purdue.
The Bowl as an example of superiority is bullshite. Some teams want to be there, others just go thru the motion. Injuries have a factor as does NFL prospects.
quote:
you asked to point out the great teams we played and I did. Now you're shifting the narrative to talk abotu if we won the games or not.
Playing "great teams" doesn't make you one. When you are less than .500 against the better teams, it shows the true quality of that team. Look at Clemson the last few years, they have been very successful but a lot of that has to due with the ACC. This is a team that lost to Pitt and Syracuse (2017) and almost to them again in 2018, but made the playoffs. Then you have 6 weeks to prepare for a game. I equate it to playing in the SECE. It would be different if Kirby wasn't 4-5 against the SECW.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:00 pm to RD Dawg
quote:
The 2nd best team in the west was shutout by Bama by 29 pts.Bama STEAMROLLED the west and UGA gave them their only real game til the NC.
And the third best team in the West blew out the best team in the East. This team finished 3 games behind the SECW Champ.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:06 pm to armtackledawg
Kirby also started with Richt's players in a trash pile called the East.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:07 pm to Irons Puppet
quote:
Bowl as an example of superiority is bull shite. Some teams want to be there, others just go thru the motion. Injuries have a factor as does NFL prospects.
This can be applied most especially to non-playoff bowl games in the current era.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:07 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Out of curiosity, where are the Richt recruiting rankings coming from? I'm guessing maybe just one of Rivals or ESPN?
247 Composite shows those classes as:
2002 - 9th
2003 - 9th
2004 - 7th
Perhaps more importantly, here was the average rating of signed recruits by year:
2002: 86.58
2003: 86.41
2004: 89.81
Compared to
2017: 92.27
2018: 94.23
2019: 93.32
So in otherwords... Richt's *average* recruit was a low 4* to high 3* athlete - typically somewhere around 350 nationally. Smart's *average* recruit is a high 4* - typically somewhere around 150-200 nationally. That's not an insignificant differential.
FWIW though, Recruiting rankings in early 2000s also were not what they are now. Kids didn't get the same level of scrutiny... It was a lot easier to find 2* Thomas Davis and 3* David Pollack then than it is now.
As many have stated, if we had 15 years of year 1-3 Mark Richt, we'd have much different conversations about the last decade or so of UGA football. Smart, much like Richt will be defined by what he does over the long haul, not solely what he did in years 1-3.
247 Composite shows those classes as:
2002 - 9th
2003 - 9th
2004 - 7th
Perhaps more importantly, here was the average rating of signed recruits by year:
2002: 86.58
2003: 86.41
2004: 89.81
Compared to
2017: 92.27
2018: 94.23
2019: 93.32
So in otherwords... Richt's *average* recruit was a low 4* to high 3* athlete - typically somewhere around 350 nationally. Smart's *average* recruit is a high 4* - typically somewhere around 150-200 nationally. That's not an insignificant differential.
FWIW though, Recruiting rankings in early 2000s also were not what they are now. Kids didn't get the same level of scrutiny... It was a lot easier to find 2* Thomas Davis and 3* David Pollack then than it is now.
As many have stated, if we had 15 years of year 1-3 Mark Richt, we'd have much different conversations about the last decade or so of UGA football. Smart, much like Richt will be defined by what he does over the long haul, not solely what he did in years 1-3.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:08 pm to Irons Puppet
quote:
And the third best team in the West blew out the best team in the East
And a team that finished .500 in SECE beat that team.
So the 2nd best team in the SECW not only lost by 29 pts but they also finished 3 games behind?If that doesn't tell you about unbalanced the West was I don't know what will.
What exactly are you guys doing close an obvious huge gap in the division?
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:14 pm to fibonaccisquared
The delta between a top three class and a top ten class is massive. This has become even more pronounced in recent years.
Go look at the recent signing classes for Bama, UGA, OSU (not last year) and then compare to teams in the top ten. There is a massive disparity in talent.
Go look at the recent signing classes for Bama, UGA, OSU (not last year) and then compare to teams in the top ten. There is a massive disparity in talent.
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