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JustGetItRight
Alabama Fan
Member since Jan 2012
12220 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

The Confederate army was rocking the Union’s world for much of the early to middle part of the war. So much so that Northern news papers were castigating Lincoln and demanding a cessation of war. Lincoln invoked censorship on the papers and deported a congressman to maintain discipline. I suspect if Lee had taken Sherman’s ploy when the Union army was holed up at Gettysburg and gone out burning down Pennsylvania instead of conducting Picket’s charge, things might have turned even more sour for Lincoln.


No.

That is the same as saying Japan would have won the Pacific war if the US carriers had been at Pearl. Only thing that happens in both cases is the war goes on longer. The Union’s manpower and industrial capacity simply couldn’t be matched. Those plus the naval blockade were insurmountable by the middle of 1863.


JustGetItRight
Alabama Fan
Member since Jan 2012
12220 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

Johnson may have been loyal to the Union and opposed to slavery, but he was a virulent racist. He spent his entire presidency blocking Republican legislation to grant basic civil rights to freedmen. He dedicated his political career to fighting black citizenship, voting rights, property ownership rights and helping southern states reestablish the same social, political, and legal structure as it had prior to the civil war, except for slavery. Even his own cabinet hated him.


All of this.

The death of Lincoln and Johnson assuming the presidency played a massive role in the failures of postwar reconstruction.


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21
moester75
Alabama Fan
Anne Arundel County, MD
Member since Oct 2018
1544 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

The Union’s manpower simply couldn’t be matched.


Yes it was a tremendous advantage the Union had with millions of Irish men pouring into New York and being handed a blue uniform and a rifle. “Welcome to America Paddy, here’s your rifle now go kill rebels.” I was raised to be an unreconstructed southerner but I’ve abandoned that train of thought entirely.


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01
Robot Santa
SMU Fan
Member since Oct 2009
34467 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:


No.

That is the same as saying Japan would have won the Pacific war if the US carriers had been at Pearl. Only thing that happens in both cases is the war goes on longer. The Union’s manpower and industrial capacity simply couldn’t be matched. Those plus the naval blockade were insurmountable by the middle of 1863.


You are totally discounting the fact that by summer of 1863 war weariness was pervasive in Union states. To that point the best the Army of The Potomac had been able to do against the Army of Northern Virginia in a pitched battle was fight them to a draw (Antietam), which is why Lee made the, in retrospect, foolish decision to force them into a battle on their own soil. The Confederates knew that Lincoln was politically vulnerable and the Northern populace had grown sick of the war. They also knew that they could never win a war of attrition against an enemy with significant advantages in finances, armaments, and manpower. The belief was that a decisive victory in a Northern state would force Lincoln to initiate peace talks, and it likely would have. What happened instead was the Union got its second wind and the Confederates were faced with the reality that the war would not be ending anytime soon. Even then it was two more years before the end. Without a victory at Gettysburg it would have been highly unlikely that the Northern states would have continued to support a war that they were making no easily discernable progress towards winning.


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01
LovetheLord
Alabama Fan
The Ash Grove
Member since Dec 2010
3519 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
I believe that most historians will tell you that a victory at Gettysburg would have broken the UNion’s back. Lee certainly thought so, which is why he was willing to conduct Picket’s charge.

But, yes. The Confederacy was at a serious numerical disadvantage, and Lee knew that he had to decrease the North’s will to fight in order to get them to sue for peace.


Birdman37
Member since Jan 2020
2 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
Only in the south could we celebrate treason, slavery and losing this much.
This post was edited on 6/11 at 8:04 pm


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29
JustGetItRight
Alabama Fan
Member since Jan 2012
12220 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

I believe that most historians will tell you that a victory at Gettysburg would have broken the UNion’s back. Lee certainly thought so, which is why he was willing to conduct Picket’s charge.


Most I have read and there have been a few say basically what I did above. Meade would have just withdrawn to a new position that either forced Lee to withdraw or fight again where the Union had the advantage. The only ones that propose any type of war winning result do so through a first Bull Run type of rout but by 1863 the Army of the Potomac was far too disciplined and experienced for that to happen.



Robot Santa
SMU Fan
Member since Oct 2009
34467 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
Again, your thoughts on the matter completely disregard the actual reality of summer 1863. The first national conscription was passed into law early that year and the first ever national draft occurred in July of 1863. The New York Draft Riots occurred in July of 1863. The draft was extremely unpopular among the large immigrant population of the North. Conscription into a losing war would have been even more unpopular.

Whether or not a Confederate victory at Gettysburg would have resulted in Lee proceeding to loot, plunder, and burn rural Pennsylvania for the next 3 months is kind of irrelevant. The tactical victory wouldn't have been the real benefit. The Confederates were after a strategic, psychological victory. They wanted to take the war to the North to break their population's spirit and advance the perception that the Confederacy was a viable country rather than a highly organized rebellion.

If the war had continued to go poorly for the Union in the East, the odds of McClellan becoming President in 1864 increase dramatically. McClellan personally wanted to continue fighting, but the Democratic party did not. The election amounted to a war referendum. A Democrat win in 1864 likely ends the war, even if Lincoln isn't motivated to end the fighting himself before then. The notion that Gettysburg wasn't the turning point of the war is honestly kind of a bizarre take. It was the primary strategic battle of the entire Civil War.


coachcrisp
Alabama Fan
pensacola, fl
Member since Jun 2012
20017 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
As John Cleese said:
"I'm very confused about toppling statues...

The Greeks, whose civilisation has long been admired in the West, believed that in the Ancient World, a cultured society was only possible if it was based on slavery

So should we be getting rid of statues of Socrates and Aristotle?"

You can't apply social standards from 150 years ago to today's world.


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30
14&Counting
Hawaii Fan
Manhattan Beach, CA
Member since Jul 2012
24403 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

The notion that Gettysburg wasn't the turning point of the war is honestly kind of a bizarre take. It was the primary strategic battle of the entire Civil War.



I view it as like the Stalingrad of the Civil War. The South was on the retreat from that point forward. It was a political battle as well designed to break northern moral. lee also could have encircled Washington DC.

You could make the argument that Shiloh was just as important. Shiloh occurred the year before and the South lost control of the Western Theater and the Mississippi. The North captured New Orleans early on and The Siege of Vicksburg occurred around the same time as Gettysburg so the South had lost their biggest port and control of the Mississippi. The losses at Gettysburg in the east and Vicksburg in the west spelled the end.
This post was edited on 6/12 at 9:20 am


Robot Santa
SMU Fan
Member since Oct 2009
34467 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

You could make the argument that Shiloh was just as important.


Shiloh marked the demise of the Confederacy's already highly unlikely ability to achieve a military victory. Gettysburg marked the demise of the Confederacy's ability to achieve a political victory. After they lost control of West/ Central Tennessee, and with it the ability to restrict Union access to the Deep South, the odds of fighting off a Union "invasion" was totally impossible. Their sole option from that point was to win a political victory by dragging the war out as long as possible in order to pressure the Union government into peace talks. The Confederates were actually "winning" in the Eastern theater of the war prior to Gettysburg, but due to the discrepancy in numbers and resources were unable to pursue and strategically defeat the Army of The Potomac. A Confederate victory at Gettysburg would have been politically and strategically devastating to the Union, serving as the exclamation point to the Confederate victory at Chancellorsville earlier in the spring and putting the Army of Northern Virginia in a position to march directly on Washington with a victory on Union soil under its belt.
This post was edited on 6/12 at 10:29 am


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CrimsonShadow
Alabama Fan
Montgomery
Member since Nov 2015
960 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
Erasing history doesn't change it.
Learning from it does.


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50
SummerOfGeorge
Alabama Fan
DeKalb
Member since Jul 2013
66655 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

view it as like the Stalingrad of the Civil War.


A very apt comparison.

Neither Germany nor the Confederates could win unless they forced the opposition to decide it was not worth fighting and quit/sue for peace. Neither had any shot to win their wars on the basis of fighting alone (even if the Germans captured the Balkan oil fields). Stalingrad and Gettsyburg were the swing battles where both had a chance to do just that.
This post was edited on 6/12 at 12:01 pm


TidalSurge1
Alabama Fan
Ft Walton Beach
Member since Sep 2016
25608 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
Image: https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/403/798/9798403.png?width=600&fit=bounds


UA will also rename buildings Lemanski Hall and DJ Hall. We landed elite 2021 WR commit Agiye Hall by promising to rename a building after him.
This post was edited on 6/12 at 2:13 pm


JustGetItRight
Alabama Fan
Member since Jan 2012
12220 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
I'm more than good with Donte Hall, but DJ Hall's going to smell like smoke and everything's only going to work like it should every few minutes.


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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Washington, D.C.
Member since Nov 2009
49230 posts
 Online 

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

The notion that Gettysburg wasn't the turning point of the war is honestly kind of a bizarre take. It was the primary strategic battle of the entire Civil War.


Completely disagree. I don't think there is a "primary strategic battle" to be found in the Civil War. You can't point to an Austerlitz, a Leipzig or a Waterloo in the Civil War and say this is where the war was won or lost. Gettysburg was a turning point but it was not the turning point. There were many turning points in the war where if something had gone differently one side could have gained insurmountable momentum over the other. I would say the one event in the Civil War that ultimately doomed the Confederacy to total defeat was Sherman's capture of Atlanta. But that was after a series of turning points led to that moment in time. Atlanta's capture was the final nail in the coffin as it assured Lincoln's re-election and thus a continuation of the war.
This post was edited on 6/12 at 6:53 pm


CapstoneGrad06
Alabama Fan
Member since Nov 2008
63987 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
I’d say it’s pretty clear that July 3, 1863 was the turning point. Gettysburg was a clear Union victory. And Vicksburg fell as well.


RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Washington, D.C.
Member since Nov 2009
49230 posts
 Online 

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

I’d say it’s pretty clear that July 3, 1863 was the turning point.


Is it? If not for the Gettysburg Address, the Battle of Gettysburg likely never becomes as big of an attraction as it did. In the weeks after the battle, most people in the North came to view the action as a Pyrrhic victory due to the fact that nothing strategic was gained from the battle. Lee was able to escape back across the Potomac and by the Fall the battle lines had returned to roughly where they had been before the start of the campaign.

When the two armies finally met again in May 1864, Lee tactically defeated the Army of the Potomac in the Battle of the Wilderness, inflicting more than 17,000 casualties on his opponent. Had anyone other than Ulysses S. Grant been in command of all forces in the field, the Union army would have retreated back across the river to re-group and that would have been that. Gettysburg wouldn't have mattered by that point. I would argue that Grant's decision to keep moving south after the action in the Wilderness was more of a turning point than Gettysburg.
This post was edited on 6/13 at 12:52 pm


TidalSurge1
Alabama Fan
Ft Walton Beach
Member since Sep 2016
25608 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
Texas athletes push for changes to campus, school song to be more racially inclusive (espn)
quote:

University of Texas athletes have released a statement saying they will no longer participate in recruitment activities until a set of demands are met, including re-naming buildings, dropping the school song “The Eyes of Texas” and educating everyone on the UT’s racist history.

Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaVm9IkWkAEa0Fh?format=jpg&name=large

Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaVnAH5WkAA8Ig6?format=jpg&name=large
This post was edited on 6/13 at 5:16 pm


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14&Counting
Hawaii Fan
Manhattan Beach, CA
Member since Jul 2012
24403 posts

re: University of Alabama system to review all building names, remove Confederate Army plaques
quote:

When the two armies finally met again in May 1864, Lee tactically defeated the Army of the Potomac in the Battle of the Wilderness, inflicting more than 17,000 casualties on his opponent. Had anyone other than Ulysses S. Grant been in command of all forces in the field, the Union army would have retreated back across the river to re-group and that would have been that. Gettysburg wouldn't have mattered by that point. I would argue that Grant's decision to keep moving south after the action in the Wilderness was more of a turning point than Gettysburg.




The war was lost in July 1863 at Gettysburg and when Vicksburg fell. After Gettysburg, the South couldn't take the offensive again. Grant had successfully prosecuted the war in the west and became general of the army. Because they had crushed the Confederates in the western theatre and secured the Mississippi, Grant was able shift a couple of army corps to the east and prosecute the war at a horrible cost to the Union armies but at an even greater costs to the Confederates who couldn't match the men and material. The Wilderness, Spotslvania, and Chickamagua were all simply deadly battles of attrition that ground down the Confederates in the East that broke all resistance.


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