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re: Protests blowing up in Downtown Birmingham
Posted on 6/5/20 at 7:07 am to Robot Santa
Posted on 6/5/20 at 7:07 am to Robot Santa
quote:
Cops and teachers are two professions that would see drastic improvements in overall quality if they were paid enough to attract a better applicant pool. Even if a department makes 8 good hires out of 10 total, half of that 8 will be gone within 2 years because they have the mental capacity to do more lucrative and less stressful work. The other half will be promoted and on their way to a desk job. The 2 who are bad people, bad employees, or both will avoid being fired because the police union protects them, but no one else will hire them because they are stupid, redneck a-holes, and they won't get promoted to a desk job with less public interaction for that same reason.
This just isn't true. For starters, in right to work states the 'police union' is nothing more than an advocacy group. Take Alabama for instance - the FOP and IAFF don't have much pull at all. Police and firefighters are even specifically forbidden from taking job actions like strikes.
The salaries for both teachers and police officer are also also very competitive. A Montgomery, Alabama police officer starts at $40,000 a year right out of the academy. It's 38k in Birmingham, 47k in Huntsville. No degree required.
The minimum starting salary for a teacher in Alabama is $38,000. It can be more with incentives.
According to Ziprecruiter, the average starting salary for a college graduate in Alabama is $31,000. The median household income in Alabama is $48k.
Depending on who you believe, the average starting salary for an Alabama or Auburn grad is between $40-$50k
Straight out of a 14 week academy a metro police officer in Alabama is paid as much as the UA/AU grad who also has $100,000 in student debt to pay off.
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Posted on 6/5/20 at 7:45 am to JustGetItRight
But then you have departments like Talladega. Which starts new officers at $10/hr. But has a horrendously high workload for said officers.
They get paid the same as a mall rent-a-cop. But work harder in a month than someone at a department like Hoover does in 4 months.
They get paid the same as a mall rent-a-cop. But work harder in a month than someone at a department like Hoover does in 4 months.
This post was edited on 6/5/20 at 7:46 am
Posted on 6/5/20 at 7:52 am to JustGetItRight
Replying to myself because it's a separate topic but one thing some of the protesting folks have right is the need to focus on mental health right off the bat. The idea of creating units of mental health professionals to respond to certain types of emergencies is fantastic and I guarantee one that police, fire, and ems will wholeheartedly support.
There have been numerous instances where family members have called 911 trying to get help for someone and that person ends up dead having been shot by an officer. Pretty much every single time the shooting's been ruled justified - and they were justified the moment the officer pulled the trigger. The problem is that many times there's a chance we could have avoided getting to that point if we were honest about mental illness.
Police are not, can not, and never will be the appropriate tool to use for a crazy person. Unfortunately right now they're the only tool we have so they get sent, crazy person acts out, police respond as trained, crazy person acts out more, and eventually someone ends up shot.
Both the left and right have abandoned mental health patients. The right points to the cost of dedicated facilities. The left has adopted the insane (pun intended) notion that the answer is to mainstream everyone. Both couldn't be more wrong. The cost is far greater when these folks aren't properly treated and putting them out in the wild when they're in crisis ends up with people hurt every single time.
Last Friday I sat in a Sam's Club parking lot for 20 minutes last week with a patient in the back suffering from what my masters-in-psychology medic thinks were legit visual and auditory hallucinations to which she was responding violently. That's a recipe for a tragedy. Both she and her family wanted to get help. She was begging for help. My medic called every single ER in Montgomery, Elmore, and Autauga counties looking for a place to take her. Every single one refused. We eventually played the EMTALA card and took her to Jackson's who released her before we got back to our station.
At least in Alabama we're starting to figure it out and are building what are three basically Mental Health ERs around the state. It will help, but it isn't enough. There have got to be more places like that and places for both long and short term institutionalization of people. Until we do, there are going to be a lot of people in prison and graves that shouldn't be there.
There have been numerous instances where family members have called 911 trying to get help for someone and that person ends up dead having been shot by an officer. Pretty much every single time the shooting's been ruled justified - and they were justified the moment the officer pulled the trigger. The problem is that many times there's a chance we could have avoided getting to that point if we were honest about mental illness.
Police are not, can not, and never will be the appropriate tool to use for a crazy person. Unfortunately right now they're the only tool we have so they get sent, crazy person acts out, police respond as trained, crazy person acts out more, and eventually someone ends up shot.
Both the left and right have abandoned mental health patients. The right points to the cost of dedicated facilities. The left has adopted the insane (pun intended) notion that the answer is to mainstream everyone. Both couldn't be more wrong. The cost is far greater when these folks aren't properly treated and putting them out in the wild when they're in crisis ends up with people hurt every single time.
Last Friday I sat in a Sam's Club parking lot for 20 minutes last week with a patient in the back suffering from what my masters-in-psychology medic thinks were legit visual and auditory hallucinations to which she was responding violently. That's a recipe for a tragedy. Both she and her family wanted to get help. She was begging for help. My medic called every single ER in Montgomery, Elmore, and Autauga counties looking for a place to take her. Every single one refused. We eventually played the EMTALA card and took her to Jackson's who released her before we got back to our station.
At least in Alabama we're starting to figure it out and are building what are three basically Mental Health ERs around the state. It will help, but it isn't enough. There have got to be more places like that and places for both long and short term institutionalization of people. Until we do, there are going to be a lot of people in prison and graves that shouldn't be there.
This post was edited on 6/5/20 at 8:05 am
Posted on 6/5/20 at 7:59 am to JustGetItRight
Morgan County Sheriff's Office
@morgan_sheriff
[UPDATE 3:30am] Homicide investigation continues. No immediate threat to the public in the area. Scene is secure. Seven fatalities. Adult males and females.
Talucah Rd will be closed near Lenox Dr. DETOUR: Use Johnson Landing and Chapman Hill to go around.
@morgan_sheriff
[UPDATE 3:30am] Homicide investigation continues. No immediate threat to the public in the area. Scene is secure. Seven fatalities. Adult males and females.
Talucah Rd will be closed near Lenox Dr. DETOUR: Use Johnson Landing and Chapman Hill to go around.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:02 am to VaBamaMan
quote:
But then you have departments like Talladega. Which starts new officers at $10/hr. But has a horrendously high workload for said officers.
According to their website, APOST certified (which is a state requirement IIRC within 6 months of being hired) Talladega officers start at $30,550 a year.
Police officers get overtime after 86 hours in a 2 week period - so assuming an 86 hour 14 day pay period that's $13.65 an hour to start. It is a competitive salary for a town the size of Talladega. That paramedic that you called to save your life when you crash on 280 going through Talladega and who went to school for close to 3 years to get his job is making the same thing when he starts.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:12 am to Fleurs
quote:
This post about Antifa being at Linn park tonight is simply untrue, despite all the upvotes. There is an obvious reason no link was included, because it didn't happen.
Meanwhile the post about the white nationalist threatening to assassinate Birmingham's mayor is true. An arrest was made, the audio of the threat is online and widely reported across many sources in the media, links provided, despite the lack of upvotes.
Obviously that says everything about who is fixated on this thread but just want to make sure any impressionable readers are reminded of this objective truth, despite the unhinged bent this thread has taken.
I was watching the live stream when the 7pm curfew rolled around. All of the people who were local left prior to the curfew. The only people left were white people with purple/blue hair. One of these people made a comment that she had not been arrested in Birmingham yet, and implied that she had been arrested in other cities that she has protested in. I can't say for sure that these were ANTIFA members, but they fit the bill, which is why I called them "likely ANTIFA members" not "definitely ANTIFA members."
This post was edited on 6/5/20 at 8:14 am
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:18 am to Roll Tide Ravens
quote:
I can't say for sure that these were ANTIFA members, but they fit the bill, which is why I called them "likely ANTIFA members" not "definitely ANTIFA members."
They're not because there's no "membership" platform for antifa. It's an ideology more than a group. I mean, if we get down to it I'm against fascism so I'm antifa. I thought we all decided fascism was bad after WWII, but I guess not.
That said, I don't associate myself with the idiot stoners out west that have become the face of antifa. Those guys suuuuuuuck. They seem to be more anarchist than anything.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:25 am to The Spleen
quote:
the idiot stoners out west that have become the face of antifa. Those guys suuuuuuuck. They seem to be more anarchist than
That is antifa though...
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:28 am to Funky Tide 8
quote:
That is antifa though...
And some people think those idiots have mobilized a national movement to stir up protests in every major city in the country. And done so without a centralized website or social media group.
Gimme a break.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:36 am to JustGetItRight
Point me to where I suggested they were making minimum wage or anything. The starting pay for a cop should be something that is actually pretty attractive to 4 year college graduates. If the average pay for a college graduate in Alabama is $31,000 what incentive is there to go be paid $37,000 to put up with the immense bullshite associated with being a patrol cop in Birmingham? There really isn't one. There's a reason that tons of cops work second jobs and a lot of teachers actually accept lower pay and worse benefits to teach at private schools. The compensation to bullshite/stress ratio is way off and the whole "giving back to your community" thing only makes up for so much.
This post was edited on 6/5/20 at 8:37 am
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:36 am to The Spleen
quote:
I thought we all decided fascism was bad after WWII, but I guess not.
We did.
ANTIFA is anti-fascist in the same way that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is democratic.
They wear disguises, launch violent attacks against innocent people to intimidate and base those attacks on the physical appearance and perceived political ideologies of the victims.
They are exactly the 21st century version of the Sturmabteilung and Squadristi.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:38 am to JustGetItRight
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:47 am to phil4bama
quote:
but ask the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery if they think they are a big joke.
The Southern Poverty Law Center is a big joke
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:53 am to Robot Santa
Honestly, we have too many teachers and cops as it is. War on Drugs and other victimless crimes increase this demand for cops and thus drives down the quality of policing. Teachers should decrease with the advent of the internet. Remaining teachers handle students until they're 11 or something, and mentally disabled children.
With the economic crisis, Americans will need to rethink how they handle society.
With the economic crisis, Americans will need to rethink how they handle society.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:55 am to JustGetItRight
That's not anarchy the way Murray Rothbard would envision. Private police would still handle hard crimes just w/o the gov't sanctioned immunity. Detroit already has a private police along with public police b/c it's broke.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 8:56 am to LovetheLord
If I ran for office, I would push for a bill that would give motorists greater freedom to run over fools like that. Just make sure there's video footage is available as defense.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 9:01 am to RollTide4Ever
I’m all for tough on crime and stopping lawless riots. But, no! To running people down with your car.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 9:02 am to LovetheLord
Private police are no better. Ever read about the Pinkerton police?
Posted on 6/5/20 at 9:05 am to Robot Santa
quote:
If the average pay for a college graduate in Alabama is $31,000 what incentive is there to go be paid $37,000 to put up with the immense bull shite associated with being a patrol cop in Birmingham? There really isn't one. There's a reason that tons of cops work second jobs and a lot of teachers actually accept lower pay and worse benefits to teach at private schools. The compensation to bullshite/stress ratio is way off and the whole "giving back to your community" thing only makes up for so much.
You're making the assumption that money is a primary motivator. It isn't. Not one single expert says that it is effective at retaining employees or improving job performance once the salary reaches a point the employee feels content with it.
If you triple the salary, you'll attract a ton more applicants and in a few months you'll have the same number of people doing a shitty job because they hate the work - it'll just cost 3 times as much.
Posted on 6/5/20 at 9:05 am to JustGetItRight
Speaking only on teachers as I'm not sure of the pay scale of police officers, etc.
The issue of teacher pay isn't the starting salary; it's the ridiculously small steps after that. A starting teacher in Alabama will earn $40,873 next year, while a teacher with 27+ years in is maxed out at $52,015. If they only got a 3% CoL each year as a "raise," then a 27 year teacher should be making $88k+, operating off this year's schedule.
Teachers in Alabama have great benefits and great retirement which helps to offset this salary discrepancy, but they're certainly not well paid. Teacher pay is absolutely an issue that should be addressed if we want to attract the best candidates. The flip-side of that, is that we also need to completely overhaul the tenure system so that we can get BAD teachers out of the schools.
The issue of teacher pay isn't the starting salary; it's the ridiculously small steps after that. A starting teacher in Alabama will earn $40,873 next year, while a teacher with 27+ years in is maxed out at $52,015. If they only got a 3% CoL each year as a "raise," then a 27 year teacher should be making $88k+, operating off this year's schedule.
Teachers in Alabama have great benefits and great retirement which helps to offset this salary discrepancy, but they're certainly not well paid. Teacher pay is absolutely an issue that should be addressed if we want to attract the best candidates. The flip-side of that, is that we also need to completely overhaul the tenure system so that we can get BAD teachers out of the schools.
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