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re: Did Alabama “make” Saban and the Bear, or did Saban and the Bear make Alabama?
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:21 pm to TideFaninFl
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:21 pm to TideFaninFl
quote:
We both know that is not true (Nebraska for example)
Nebraska isn't an elite program today.
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We both know that is not true. Maybe OSU, but that is about it
bullshite
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Yes they do, and I have explained it to you.
I think the problem you are having is that there are few and far between elite programs. Alabama is the only one in the south.
Literally no quantifiable advantage.
1
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:21 pm to SidewalkTiger
If the discussion is "is Alabama the best program in the country without question even without one of the best coaches of all-time" the answer is clearly no. Same would apply to any program.
If the question is "Is Alabama one of a handful of elite programs in the country without one of the best coaches of all-time (assuming the coach is at least above average)" I think history shows the answer is yes.
There is nothing magical about Alabama (or anywhere else) that makes it the best program of it's era without a very good head coach. But the floor is really high as long as the coach is competent and the program isn't saddled with other issues (like scholarship reductions). Same as most other elite schools with resources and consistent history - Ohio State, USC, LSU, Georgia. Good, not great, coaches have won consistently at those places. Cooper at OSU, Miles/O at LSU, Donnan/late Richt at UGA, etc.
I mean compare that to some other places talked about as great places to win who have had decent coaches just crash and burn over and over (Texas as an example).
If the question is "Is Alabama one of a handful of elite programs in the country without one of the best coaches of all-time (assuming the coach is at least above average)" I think history shows the answer is yes.
There is nothing magical about Alabama (or anywhere else) that makes it the best program of it's era without a very good head coach. But the floor is really high as long as the coach is competent and the program isn't saddled with other issues (like scholarship reductions). Same as most other elite schools with resources and consistent history - Ohio State, USC, LSU, Georgia. Good, not great, coaches have won consistently at those places. Cooper at OSU, Miles/O at LSU, Donnan/late Richt at UGA, etc.
I mean compare that to some other places talked about as great places to win who have had decent coaches just crash and burn over and over (Texas as an example).
This post was edited on 4/12/23 at 2:24 pm
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:24 pm to RollTide1987
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So was Alabama an elite program prior to Bryant arriving in Tuscaloosa?
Yes. Alabama would be an elite program without Saban or Bryant.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:25 pm to SidewalkTiger
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Yes. Alabama would be an elite program without Saban or Bryant.
Not sure why anyone is arguing with you. Your take on this is correct.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:28 pm to SummerOfGeorge
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If the question is "Is Alabama one of a handful of elite programs in the country without one of the best coaches of all-time (assuming the coach is at least above average)" I think history shows the answer is yes.
There is nothing magical about Alabama (or anywhere else) that makes it the best program of it's era without a very good head coach. But the floor is really high as long as the coach is competent and the program isn't saddled with other issues (like scholarship reductions). Same as most other elite schools with resources and consistent history - Ohio State, USC, LSU, Georgia. Good, not great, coaches have won consistently at those places. Cooper at OSU, Miles/O at LSU, Donnan/late Richt at UGA, etc.
Completely agree.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:36 pm to MizzouTrue
I will go with the program. Bama expects to win at the highest level and will do anything it takes. It attracted two of the best coaches in college football.
However I believe Kelly will have a very special run at LSU before it’s all said and done. Putting him up their with the all time greats.
However I believe Kelly will have a very special run at LSU before it’s all said and done. Putting him up their with the all time greats.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:38 pm to redbean5
quote:
However I believe Kelly will have a very special run at LSU before it’s all said and done. Putting him up their with the all time greats
I could honestly see Kelly retiring if he wins a title.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:46 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Compare the first 5 years at both schools then.
LSU - 2000 - 8-4
2001 - 10-3
2002 - 8-5
2003 - 13-1 NC
2004 - 9-3
BAMA - 2007 - 7-6
2008 - 12-2
2009 - 14-0 NC
2010 - 10-3
2011 - 12-1 NC
Why?
You're comparing apples to oranges.
True, Alabama is an elite program, LSU is not.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:46 pm to MizzouTrue
In the end it requires both.
By that I mean to have someone like Saban at Bama or Bear at Bama, you need both a school that supports football to a ridiculous level both financially and with fan support (both of which impact recruiting players which is necessary to win) and a coach who is excellent.
If you have the school without the elite coach, you can still do very well and possibly win a title here and there, but you won't have the Bear/Saban level of success. If you have just the coach but not the school, the coach will do better than other coaches have at the school, but won't be NC winning programs.
For me a guy like Spurrier is a great example. He did more at Duke than any other coach could, but wasn't winning titles. Then he went to UF and won a title because they had the pieces necessary to do so. Then he went to SC and did better than any other coach there, but wasn't winning titles.
Takes both the program and the coach.
By that I mean to have someone like Saban at Bama or Bear at Bama, you need both a school that supports football to a ridiculous level both financially and with fan support (both of which impact recruiting players which is necessary to win) and a coach who is excellent.
If you have the school without the elite coach, you can still do very well and possibly win a title here and there, but you won't have the Bear/Saban level of success. If you have just the coach but not the school, the coach will do better than other coaches have at the school, but won't be NC winning programs.
For me a guy like Spurrier is a great example. He did more at Duke than any other coach could, but wasn't winning titles. Then he went to UF and won a title because they had the pieces necessary to do so. Then he went to SC and did better than any other coach there, but wasn't winning titles.
Takes both the program and the coach.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:53 pm to TideFaninFl
quote:
True, Alabama is an elite program, LSU is not.
I agree that LSU was definitely not an elite program when Saban arrived, he then built it into one.
If Saban hadn't had to scratch the NFL itch, there was nothing keeping him from having the same or more success at LSU that he's had at Alabama.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 3:04 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Nebraska isn't an elite program today.
But they were, but we can say Texas if you want....
quote:
Yes they do, and I have explained it to you.
I think the problem you are having is that there are few and far between elite programs. Alabama is the only one in the south.
Literally no quantifiable advantage.
Literally you are wrong, again.....
Posted on 4/12/23 at 3:07 pm to TideFaninFl
quote:
Literally you are wrong, again.....
So name the quantifiable advantage.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 3:09 pm to MizzouTrue
The environment has to be right for even a great coach to be successful. Alabama has made sure these coaches have had what they needed to win.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 5:02 pm to MizzouTrue
Those coaches, both the best of their respective generation, made Bama. End of story.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 5:15 pm to MizzouTrue
The plug and play coach narrative is a fallacy. Saban and Bear made Alabama football what it is.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 5:26 pm to bamameister
The five year comparison means nothing when he was dodging nfl rumors from year 1
He was always gonna leave lsu for nfl
He was always gonna leave lsu for nfl
Posted on 4/12/23 at 7:06 pm to Madking
quote:
The plug and play coach narrative is a fallacy.
It really isn't.
Gene Stallings was a combined 50-79-2 in college and the NFL when Alabama hired him in January 1990. He went 70-16-1 over the next seven seasons. Since Alabama hired Xen Scott back in 1919, only one Alabama head coach has failed to have at least one 10-win season and that was "Ears" Whitworth (1955-1957).
Xen Scott (1919-1922): 1 10+ win season
Wallace Wade (1923-1930): 2 10+ win seasons
Frank Thomas (1931-1946): 2 10+ win seasons
Harold "Red" Drew (1947-1954): 1 10+ win season
J.B. "Ears" Whitworth (1955-1957): 0 10+ win seasons
Paul "Bear" Bryant (1958-1982): 13 10+ win seasons
Ray Perkins (1983-1986): 1 10+ win season
Bill Curry (1987-1989): 1 10+ win season
Gene Stallings (1990-1996): 4 10+ win seasons
Mike DuBose (1997-2000): 1 10+ win season
Dennis Franchione (2001-2002): 1 10+ win season
Mike Shula (2003-2006): 1 10+ win season
Nick Saban (2007-Present): 15 10+ win seasons
This post was edited on 4/12/23 at 7:13 pm
Posted on 4/12/23 at 8:25 pm to RollTide1987
College football has been a nationwide sport for less than 100 years and wasn’t a cultural landmark of American life until the past 60 or 70 years, 40 of which Bama was led by Bryant or Saban.
Trying to argue that Bama wouldn’t be that great if you took away its best 40 years and two best coaches would be like trying to argue America wouldn’t be that powerful if it had lost both World Wars and Jimmy Carter became a dictator.
Trying to argue that Bama wouldn’t be that great if you took away its best 40 years and two best coaches would be like trying to argue America wouldn’t be that powerful if it had lost both World Wars and Jimmy Carter became a dictator.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 9:06 pm to MillerLiteTime
If you took away the Bryant and Saban eras, Alabama would still probably be the third or fourth best program in the SEC, historically.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 11:51 pm to MizzouTrue
Alabama invented football. They just happened to have the Bear from 1958-1982. And Saban from 2007 to now. Stallings was a “good coach” who won a championship so props to him. The seasons 1983-1991 don’t count. Neither does 1997-2006. So when your school had good seasons it doesn’t mean anything. Once Saban leaves, let’s see if that 11 win per season average continues.
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