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re: Did Alabama “make” Saban and the Bear, or did Saban and the Bear make Alabama?
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:36 pm to SidewalkTiger
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:36 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
So what's the advantage?
I just told you. BAMA, by your estimation, is the premiere pre-modern Blueblood of college football. BAMA, by all metrics, is the premier blueblood of the modern era.
One loss to Georgia in the last 15 years doesn't change the big picture. And it didn't change the big picture when Florida, Auburn, Tennessee, and LSU happen to have their moments in the SEC.
The reality is that ALABAMA is the premier pre and modern-day blueblood of college football. And that is just the way it is. That is history.
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Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:39 pm to bamameister
quote:
BAMA, by all metrics, is the premier blueblood of the modern era.
So how does that keep you from being "just another elite program" once Saban is gone?
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:42 pm to MizzouTrue
Saban and the Bear made Alabama, since Alabama failed to make Bill Curry, Ray Perkins, Mike Shula, and Mike DuBose.
Gene Stallings needs a shoutout here, too.
Even if you've got a great train, you'll derail it if you don't have a good engineer.
Gene Stallings needs a shoutout here, too.
Even if you've got a great train, you'll derail it if you don't have a good engineer.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:45 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
So how does that keep you from being "just another elite program" once Saban is gone?
If BAMA stays elite as you say, it won't change the big picture. ALABAMA is still the premiere Blueblood football program in America.
Thus making my point once again. The big picture.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:48 pm to bamameister
quote:
ALABAMA is still the premiere Blueblood football program in America.
That's a meaningless title, outside of bragging rights.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:51 pm to BhamTigah
Saban wasn't at LSU long enough to compare to Bama under Saban
Plus he was constantly dodging NFL rumors which didn't help in recruiting
Let's say Bama hired Saban from Mich St and then he went to NFL and then came back to LSU, he would have had similar results
Saban would have dominated at Texas had he taken that job as well
Plus he was constantly dodging NFL rumors which didn't help in recruiting
Let's say Bama hired Saban from Mich St and then he went to NFL and then came back to LSU, he would have had similar results
Saban would have dominated at Texas had he taken that job as well
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:53 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
So how does that keep you from being "just another elite program" once Saban is gone?
I think most of us would be thrilled to be "just another elite program" (in terms of at that time, not historically, obviously) once Saban is gone.
You could argue that's what we are right now, honestly.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:57 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
One of the weirder arguments for this invisible advantage Alabama supposedly has.
Bama sits in a football crazy state, has a national brand name and has a recruiting radius of about 500 miles were most of the south's top athletes reside. I heard several recruits say they knew they were special only when Alabama came to see them. Alabama attracts great coaches (Wade, Thomas and Stallings all won NC at Alabama and Curry had Alabama in position to win. Debose, Fran and Shula were handicapped by the ncaa.
The fact is even those coaches won 10 or more games and either won the SEC or came very close.
You can argue and deny that Alabama is a special place, but you would be wrong, the evidence is overwhelming not in your favor.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:57 pm to NaturalStateReb
quote:
Saban and the Bear made Alabama, since Alabama failed to make Bill Curry, Ray Perkins, Mike Shula, and Mike DuBose.
And BAMA won 5 national titles before coach Bryant. Huff and puff all you like, BAMA was known as a national power and blueblood in college football back in the 1920s up to the late 50s when coach Bryant arrived.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 1:59 pm to Forever
quote:
Nice pivot. We have multiple national championships since 2000 with 3 different coaches, something that has taken Alabama 70 years to accomplish. Regardless, nothing about those numbers say “best program ever” like y’all are pretending in this thread.
A pivot? You mean laying out the actual results of the era that you brought up?
quote:
We have multiple national championships since 2000 with 3 different coaches, something that has taken Alabama 70 years to accomplish
Well, yea, if you start counting at the start of the Bryant era and somehow use his longevity and success as a negative against him sure
From the time the first national title coach won his last AP title
Bryant - 1979
Stallings - 1992
Saban - 2009
quote:
Not a single one of those coaches, including Saban at LSU, are remotely in the same league as Bryant and Saban at Alabama.
So? What does that have to do with the idea that a program is truly only what they are without their very best, elite coaches? You want to compare every other program with their best coaches to Alabama minus their best 50 years of history
. quote:
. Again, the question was whether or not Saban/Bryant have made Bama into the best program in the country or if the program made them into the best coaches, and the answer is very obviously that it’s them making the program and not the other way around.
And as the "pivot" noted, Alabama is a very very good program even if Bryant and Saban never existed. Alabama is the best program of all time because Bryant and Saban existed for almost 40 years of our history.
. This post was edited on 4/12/23 at 2:05 pm
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:00 pm to TideFaninFl
quote:
Bama sits in a football crazy state, has a national brand name and has a recruiting radius of about 500 miles were most of the south's top athletes reside.
That's true of all elite programs.
quote:
I heard several recruits say they knew they were special only when Alabama came to see them.
I've heard some say the same about LSU, Ohio State, and other programs.
quote:
You can argue and deny that Alabama is a special place, but you would be wrong, the evidence is overwhelming not in your favor.
Alabama is definitely an elite program, they don't have any advantage over any other elite program though.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:07 pm to nicholastiger
quote:
Saban wasn't at LSU long enough to compare to Bama under Saban
Compare the first 5 years at both schools then.
LSU - 2000 - 8-4
2001 - 10-3
2002 - 8-5
2003 - 13-1 NC
2004 - 9-3
BAMA - 2007 - 7-6
2008 - 12-2
2009 - 14-0 NC
2010 - 10-3
2011 - 12-1 NC
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:08 pm to NaturalStateReb
quote:
Bill Curry
3 Seasons
26-10
14-6 SEC
1 SEC Championship
1 Top 10 Finish
2 Top 20 Finishes
quote:
Ray Perkins
4 Seasons
32-15-1
14-9-1
1 Top 10 Finish
3 Top 15 Finishes
Over a 7 year period that most consider a massive failure Alabama finished ranked 5 times, had 2 top 10 finishes and won an SEC Title. The standard is just applied differently here (by both Alabama fans and rivals) because of Bryant (and now Saban).
I mean most people outside of Alabama barely even think of Gene Stallings. He'd be the greatest modern coach in the history of a large portion of the SEC and most of the country.
7 seasons
70-16-1
43-10-1 SEC
1 SEC Title
1 National Title
3 Top 5 finishes
5 Top 15 finishes
6 Top 25 finishes
4 10 win seasons
From Bryant's retirement to the dark days of probation and the Mikes, Alabama did the following
1983-1996 (14 seasons) (Perkins, Curry, Stallings)
- 128-41-2 (75.4%)
- 71-25-2 SEC (73.5%)
- 1 National Title
- 2 SEC Titles
- 3 Top 5 finishes
- 5 Top 10 finishes
- 11 Top 25 finishes
This post was edited on 4/12/23 at 2:18 pm
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:09 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
That's a meaningless title, outside of bragging rights.
Alabama has won more games in less time (and is only 6 games behind Michigan if you count games won on the field)
Alabama has won at least 1 NC every decade since 1920 (except the 50's and 80's). Most decades they won 2 or 3
Alabama has won an SEC title every decade since the SEC was formed.
Alabama has played in and won more bowl games then any other school
Alabama has a winning record over every team they have played 11 or more times.
No brag just facts.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:10 pm to MizzouTrue
Alabama is a fantastic program on its own merit. Coaches other than Saban and Bear have won NCs there.
Both Saban and Bear won at other stops as well.
I think it’s just quality coaches and a quality program that elevate each other.
Both Saban and Bear won at other stops as well.
I think it’s just quality coaches and a quality program that elevate each other.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:13 pm to bamameister
quote:
Compare the first 5 years at both schools then.
LSU - 2000 - 8-4
2001 - 10-3
2002 - 8-5
2003 - 13-1 NC
2004 - 9-3
BAMA - 2007 - 7-6
2008 - 12-2
2009 - 14-0 NC
2010 - 10-3
2011 - 12-1 NC
Why?
You're comparing apples to oranges.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:14 pm to NaturalStateReb
quote:
Saban and the Bear made Alabama, since Alabama failed to make Bill Curry, Ray Perkins, Mike Shula, and Mike DuBose.
Our three most recent national title-winning coaches had the following records before they arrived at Alabama:
Nick Saban: 91-42-1 (.683)
Gene Stallings: 27-45-1 (.378)
Paul "Bear" Bryant: 91-39-8 (.688)
Now here are their records that they compiled while just at Alabama:
Nick Saban: 194-27 (.878)
Gene Stallings: 70-16-1 (.810)
Paul "Bear" Bryant: 232-46-9 (.824)
All three coaches were below .700 prior to arriving at Alabama (with Gene Stallings even being below .400) and yet finished/will finish their tenures at Alabama with winning percentages all north of 80%.
Who made who?
This post was edited on 4/12/23 at 2:15 pm
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:16 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
That's true of all elite programs.
We both know that is not true (Nebraska for example)
quote:
I've heard some say the same about LSU, Ohio State, and other programs.
We both know that is not true. Maybe OSU, but that is about it
quote:
Alabama is definitely an elite program, they don't have any advantage over any other elite program though.
Yes they do, and I have explained it to you.
I think the problem you are having is that there are few and far between elite programs. Alabama is the only one in the south.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:17 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
All three coaches were below .700 prior to arriving at Alabama (with Gene Stallings even being below .400) and yet finished/will finish their tenures at Alabama with winning percentages all north of 80%.
The difference in coaching at an elite program and not.
Posted on 4/12/23 at 2:19 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
The difference in coaching at an elite program and not.
So was Alabama an elite program prior to Bryant arriving in Tuscaloosa? Or did Bear Bryant make Alabama into an elite program?
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