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re: SEC Basketball: Is it the Big 3 compared to Big 6 of football?
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:04 am to Triple Daves
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:04 am to Triple Daves
quote:
A lot of SEC teams really got screwed by the 1 team per conference rule when Kentucky ran the conference. Really kept down some of the other teams NCAAT numbers.
No, we won the conference in those seasons and were not allowed to accept a bid to the NCAA's. We had to sneak out of the state behind the governor's back to go to the 1963 tournament.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:04 am to BreakawayZou83
quote:
1. Kentucky
2. Florida
3. Arkansas
4. LSU
5. Tennessee
6. Missouri
7. Alabama
8. Vanderbilt
I would actually have Florida and Arkansas on the same level, or Arkansas slightly ahead of Florida. Definitely not a gap like you suggest.
National Titles
Florida: 2
Arkansas 1
National Title Games
Florida: 3
Arkansas: 2
NCAA Tourney's
Arkansas: 30(31 invites)
Florida: 17
Final Fours
Arkansas: 6
Florida 5
Elite Eights
Arkansas: 10
Florida: 8
Sweet Sixteens
Arkansas: 10
Florida: 9
All Time Wins
Arkansas: 1,619 (94 seasons)
Florida: 1,381 (98 seasons)
This post was edited on 1/19/17 at 10:08 am
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:05 am to ShaneTheLegLechler
quote:
Auburn was in a national title game in 2013. LSU in 2011. It's been 10 years since a team besides Kentucky appeared in a national title game, and 22 years since a program besides Kentucky or Florida appeared in a national title game. The gap between Kentucky and everyone else is much bigger than Alabama in foortball, and the gap between Kentucky and Florida and everyone else is even bigger than that It's been 11 years since a team other than Kentucky or Florida made the Final 4 I believe
I think you have to take into account that there are 3X as many schools in basketball to compete against as there are in football.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:08 am to BloodSweat&Beers
quote:
Yet Arky or LSU have never won a SEC All Sports Trophy in a long time.
We are too busy winning national titles!
Though Florida is steadily closing the gap and in the next twenty years (possibly sooner) will probably have a clear lead in total national titles unless Arkansas or LSU goes bonkers in track. Which will be tough to do with Nike pouring huge money into the Oregon track program and Florida stepping up their own track program.
Georgia isn't that far behind Florida I think but Florida has seemingly pulled in front of them in all the sports that Georgia used to dominate in.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:12 am to Bankshot
quote:
No, we won the conference in those seasons and were not allowed to accept a bid to the NCAA's. We had to sneak out of the state behind the governor's back to go to the 1963 tournament.
Yea - I realize that - but for the most part Kentucky won and there were other teams that were Top 20 teams that were forced into the NIT or nothing at all.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:13 am to Arksulli
There are only 2 sports that matter. Everything else is title IV stuff that no one watches.
3rd most popular would be womens' basketball.
3rd most popular would be womens' basketball.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:14 am to kywildcatfanone
quote:
3rd most popular would be womens' basketball.
LSU FAN ENGAGE
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:15 am to Triple Daves
quote:
Tennessee, Alabama, Missouri, Mississippi State
MSU is the only school with a final four appearance.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:15 am to Triple Daves
quote:
Yea - I realize that - but for the most part Kentucky won and there were other teams that were Top 20 teams that were forced into the NIT or nothing at all.
Yea. For example...Arkansas has finished in their league in 3rd place or 2nd place 16 times and not made the NCAA Tourney. In today's format, that would likely equate to at least 15 more NCAA Appearances.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:16 am to BloodSweat&Beers
Missouri won their first conference title back in 1917, the old Missouri Valley which was the ancestor of the Big 6 then 8, then 12.
Overall, those MO Valley teams won 4 conference titles, and a couple of those could be considered National Champs. In fact, some thing called the Premo-Porretta Power Poll LINK gave the title to two of those teams.
Mizzou won 3 Big 6 titles, followed by 8 more in the Big 8. Mizzou has also won six conference tourney titles.
Norm Stewart has admitted over the years that he placed much more emphasis on winning the conference title. He viewed the NCAA as gravy, which may explain some of the issues Mizzou's had in the NCAA tourney.
Overall, Mizzou has won:
1. 15 conference titles
2. Six conference tourney titles
3. Been to 26 NCAA's - I think MO and Purdue have the record, or are 1 & 2 in most appearances without advancing to the Final Four
4. Been to 4 Elite Eights
5. & kind of sort of won 2 mythical National Titles (I don't count those) (If I looked at that right, Alabama, and yes, Kentucky also have one of these)
Bonus: Mizzou will finally get a new coach within the next couple of months and Mike Alden isn't hiring him! Alden - great with football, really, really bad with basketball.
Overall, those MO Valley teams won 4 conference titles, and a couple of those could be considered National Champs. In fact, some thing called the Premo-Porretta Power Poll LINK gave the title to two of those teams.
Mizzou won 3 Big 6 titles, followed by 8 more in the Big 8. Mizzou has also won six conference tourney titles.
Norm Stewart has admitted over the years that he placed much more emphasis on winning the conference title. He viewed the NCAA as gravy, which may explain some of the issues Mizzou's had in the NCAA tourney.
Overall, Mizzou has won:
1. 15 conference titles
2. Six conference tourney titles
3. Been to 26 NCAA's - I think MO and Purdue have the record, or are 1 & 2 in most appearances without advancing to the Final Four
4. Been to 4 Elite Eights
5. & kind of sort of won 2 mythical National Titles (I don't count those) (If I looked at that right, Alabama, and yes, Kentucky also have one of these)
Bonus: Mizzou will finally get a new coach within the next couple of months and Mike Alden isn't hiring him! Alden - great with football, really, really bad with basketball.
This post was edited on 1/19/17 at 10:28 am
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:17 am to MSUbulldogs03
quote:
MSU is the only school with a final four appearance.
State does have a Final Four, but State also has only 10 NCAA appearances and an overall limited amount of success historically. The one Elite Eight was from the Final Four year. All of the others listed have an overall better historical resume than Miss State.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:42 am to WG_Dawg
quote:
The "big 6" was coined when we went to divisions and the top 3 in each side were desigated
I remember the 6 being discussed back when the SEC still had Georgia Tech and Tulane. The modern version seems to have evolved from the 1990's realignment.
quote:
With basketball you have UK then a gap so large you can't even see the end of it.
:kige:
UK is the past, the present, and the future
Hogs were good with Eddie and Nolan, but have fallen since
Gators are the Billy Donovan show and not much else
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:45 am to CGSC Lobotomy
quote:
Missouri has one elite 8 appearance and 0 regular season conference titles. They are also one of the few 2 seeds to lose to a 15.
But certainly a better program than Aggy.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:46 am to Triple Daves
quote:
Like in football there is a Big 1 and then a 2nd tier.
Unlike football, the 2nd tier is only 2-3 schools as opposed to 4-5 schools.
While partly true, this type of thinking is GREATLY exaggerated by Bama fans. Alabama is certainly way out front in football at #1... but its not even in the same ballpark compared to how out front at #1 Kentucky is in basketball.
As for football, Alabama is the #1 program of all-time at a national level... but you have Tennessee at #9, LSU and #11, and Georgia, Auburn, and Florida all in the mix in some order at #13, #14, and #15. All six of these could be described as "elite" programs in the college football world. Even still, Texas A&M, Arkansas, and Ole Miss are all somwhere in the Top 25 or 30 all-time, with Mizzou somewhere in the 30-35 range.
So yes, while Bama is the clear #1 in the league, there are a ton of other SEC programs that have had major success on a national level.
SEC basketball is a different story. Nationally speaking, Kentucky is a Top 2 or 3 program... possibly #1 all-time (along with UCLA and UNC).
Behind them, Arkansas and Florida are somewhere between #20 and #25 all-time. LSU comes in somewhere in the 30s. And those are probably your only Top 50 programs of all-time, nationally speaking, from the SEC. Missouri, Tennessee, and Alabama would be next, but they are probably all between #50 and #60.
While some will argue that there are more teams in basketball, they would be correct. Being Top 25 in basketball is probably about like being Top 10 or 15 in football. However, Kentucky's dominance of the SEC is unprecedented compared to other major conferences.
The ACC of old has produced two Top 5 programs of all-time (UNC and Duke) with NC State also in the Top 20.... and that doesn't even count newish member Louisville who is easily a Top 10 program.
The BIG 10 has produced Indiana, Michigan State, Ohio State, and Michigan... all Top 20 programs all-time. Plus Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Purdue are all easily Top 30 or Top 40. Newcomer Maryland is Top 30.
The BIG 12 has produced Kansas (Top 5) along with Oklahoma State (Top 15), Kansas State, and Oklahoma (both Top 25). Texas is also just outside the Top 25 all-time.
The PAC 12 has produced UCLA who is Top 3... along with Arizona (#15-#20 range), plus newcomer Utah (Top 20). Honestly its probably the closest to the SEC in terms of being top-heavy.
But while the SEC has just 3 Top 30 programs all-time (Kentucky, Florida, and Arkansas), even it needs some asterisks by two of those teams. The majority of Arkansas' basketball success came while they were a member of the Southwest Conference. In fact, 80% of their Elite 8 appearances came prior to their joining the SEC. While their lone National Title came in Year 2 of being in the SEC, their program has fallen off significantly since the mid-90s.
And while Florida has got to be counted as a Top 25 program all-time thanks to their two national titles, they have by far the fewest NCAA Tournament appearances and Sweet 16 appearances of any Top 25 program. This is a program that counts its first NCAA Tournament appearance in 1989. So historically speaking, they are actually a bottom-feeder in the SEC.
Kentucky just outright dominates this league. And its domination makes Bama's lead in football look minuscule.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:48 am to BreakawayZou83
quote:
5.Tennessee 6.Missouri
How? Missouri has done everything Tennessee has and more.
This post was edited on 1/19/17 at 10:50 am
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:50 am to Triple Daves
All I got from that is LSU is in the top 5 or 3 for all 3 sports.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:51 am to Triple Daves
quote:
But yea - I'd say my list would be something like Tier 1 - Kentucky Tier 2 - Arkansas, Florida Tier 3 - LSU (mainly due to Final 4s compared to UT/Bama, rest is pretty even) Tier 4 - Tennessee, Alabama, Missouri, Mississippi State Tier 5 - Georgia, Vanderbilt Tier 6 - Auburn, South Carolina, Texas A&M Tier 7 - Ole Miss
As of right now we are Tier 8
Posted on 1/19/17 at 10:58 am to AaronB4Mizzou
quote:
Overall, Mizzou has won:
1. 15 conference titles
2. Six conference tourney titles
3. Been to 26 NCAA's - I think MO and Purdue have the record, or are 1 & 2 in most appearances without advancing to the Final Four
4. Been to 4 Elite Eights
5. & kind of sort of won 2 mythical National Titles (I don't count those) (If I looked at that right, Alabama, and yes, Kentucky also have one of these)
That is nice and all, but does not mean anything. Cats have been to 56 NCAA tourneys so 26 is not real impressive.
Mizzou needs to
#1 Beat UK at least once (Cats are 9-0 vs Tigers since 1960)
#2 Go to a Final Four (Cats have been to 17)
Pretty sure UK does not have a "mythical" title in basketball. UNC claims a Helms Natty but UK choses not to.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 11:03 am to Hawgeye
quote:
Should there be more of a determining factor than National Championship winning programs?
Until UK built Rupp, Memorial in Nashville was one of the biggest college basketball venues in the USA. Memorial Magic is real and while the Dores have not made a Final Four, they have always been a gem in SEC basketball.
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