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re: SEC Basketball: Is it the Big 3 compared to Big 6 of football?
Posted on 1/19/17 at 12:39 pm to Cheese Grits
Posted on 1/19/17 at 12:39 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
1 Kentucky
2 North Carolina
3 Indiana
4 Kansas
Kentucky and UCLA have the same number of Final 4 appearances.
So would you rather have 10 more overall tournament appearances (55 vs. 45) or 3 more National Titles (11 vs. 8 in UCLA's favor). I'd say 3 National Titles dwarfs 10 1st round appearances.
North Carolina's resume is even weaker compared to UCLA... The Bruins have 11 National Titles compared to UNC's 5.
Indiana is not even in the same discussion as UCLA:
Tournament Appearances:
45- UCLA
39- Indiana
Sweet 16's:
33- UCLA
22- Indiana
Final Fours:
17- UCLA
8- Indiana
National Titles:
11- UCLA
5- Indiana
Anyone who tries to put the Hoosiers in the Top 3 is completely delusional.
To me, the Top 3 is debatable. Certainly UCLA, Kentucky, North Carolina... but I think that order is most logical based on Tournament success.
Duke is a very clear #4.
Kansas, Louisville, and Indiana are very clearly #s 5-7 in some order... but again that order is most logical based upon tournament success.
quote:
UCLA and Duke are 1 coach schools.
Didn't know we were rating coaches. I thought we were rating schools.
quote:
IN and KY have been, and still are, the 2 craziest states for basketball fans and per capita high school support.
Fandom is not a qualifier, IMO. The state of Mississippi takes football far more seriously than the state of California on a per capita basis... that doesn't mean that Ole Miss is in the same breath as USC.
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Posted on 1/19/17 at 12:43 pm to Hawgeye
quote:
A good example of this is Arkansas winning against LSU(at the time #2 in SEC) 18 of its first 19 games against them in league play.
But we were just talking about BEFORE Arkansas joined the SEC--and LSU was 5-3 lifetime against Arkansas in that era, which takes some of the wind out of your argument.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 12:46 pm to Hawgeye
quote:
A good example of this is Arkansas winning against LSU(at the time #2 in SEC) 18 of its first 19 games against them in league play.
But we're discussing Arkansas pre-SEC, are we not?
Like that time when LSU demolished Arkansas in the 1981 Sweet 16.
And of Arkansas' 6 Final Four appearances, 2 of them came when the tournament only invited 8 teams. Congrats on those first round wins in the early 40s.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 12:53 pm to Triple Daves
quote:
Of course, but mainly because the SEC is deeper and stronger nationally in football historically than basketball.
Right. But its sort of the chicken/egg scenario. Is basketball less deep and strong because Kentucky always has been so dominant that it kept other programs down for decades? It's logical to think so.
In the 1970s, if a kid grew up in Nashville and wanted to play at an elite basketball school, but gets passed over by Kentucky... does he stay in state and play at Tennessee or Vandy? Or does he go to Indiana, Ohio State, or Notre Dame because he has a better shot of making it into the NCAA Tournament and winning a title? Likely he heads north.
Its like you said earlier, Kentucky was so dominant for decades that the rest of the SEC didn't get to frequent the NCAA Tournament back when it was a smaller tourney field.
Part of the reason the other programs in the league never got major traction was because Kentucky so thoroughly dominated. In the 1940s and 1950s, Kentucky won out right or tied for the regular season SEC Championship in 14 out of the 20 seasons.
Contrast that with the BIG 10 during the same time period: Illinois had the most conference titles with just 5... Indiana had 4... Iowa 3... Ohio State... 3... Michigan State 2... Wisconsin 2... etc.
In the SEC, Kentucky had 14. LSU was the only other program with more than 2, and they had just 3.
This post was edited on 1/19/17 at 12:54 pm
Posted on 1/19/17 at 1:01 pm to Triple Daves
quote:
Tier 4 - Tennessee, Alabama, Missouri, Mississippi State
Tier 5 - Georgia, Vanderbilt
Tier 6 - Auburn, South Carolina, Texas A&M
I'd give the nod to Mississippi St over Auburn, but to say they are 2 tiers above Auburn feels pretty absurd
Posted on 1/19/17 at 1:04 pm to Gary Busey
quote:
There is such a large disparity between Kentucky and the rest of the conference
Even more so than in football. LSU is the only other school with double digit championships (regular season). In football, 3 schools other than Bama have double digit championships.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 1:14 pm to GenesChin
quote:
I'd give the nod to Mississippi St over Auburn, but to say they are 2 tiers above Auburn feels pretty absurd
Yea, it's tough to figure out how to weight stuff. You could probably bump Vandy up to 4, Georgia down to 6 and eliminate 5.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 1:24 pm to BHMKyle
Another way to look at it is this... just take the history of the AP Poll.
Despite Alabama being so thoroughly dominant under Nick Saban, 8 other SEC programs have produced a team that has finished in the AP Top 5 during the ten years that Saban has been at Alabama:
LSU (#1 in 2007; #2 in 2011)
Florida (#1 in 2008, #3 in 2009)
Auburn (#1 in 2010; #2 in 2013)
Georgia (#2 in 2007; #5 in 2012)
South Carolina (#4 in 2013)
Arkansas (#5 in 2011)
Missouri (#5 in 2013)
Texas A&M (#5 in 2012)
So during a period of SEC football in which one team has been so thoroughly dominant, winning 4 National Titles in just 10 years time, the SEC has also produced 8 other programs to have a Top 5 finish combining for a total of 12 Top 5 finishes.
Contrast with basketball. What the SEC has accomplished in football the past 10 seasons (aside from Alabama) is the exact equivalent of what we've accomplished throughout the entire history of the SEC in basketball (outside of Kentucky).
Aside from Kentucky, the SEC has produced just 12 AP Top 5 finishes in basketball.... also from among 8 different programs: LSU had 3; Florida and Mississippi State have 2; Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt each have 1.
Of course the Final AP poll comes out prior to the NCAA Tournament. But just look at Final Fours and you'll get a similar number. The SEC has produced 13 Final Four appearances other than Kentucky: Florida has 5 (1994, 2000, 2006, 2007, 2014); LSU has 4 (1953, 1981, 1986, 2006); Arkansas has 2 (1994, 1995), Georgia (1983); Mississippi State (1996).
Kentucky kept this league down for decades.
Despite Alabama being so thoroughly dominant under Nick Saban, 8 other SEC programs have produced a team that has finished in the AP Top 5 during the ten years that Saban has been at Alabama:
LSU (#1 in 2007; #2 in 2011)
Florida (#1 in 2008, #3 in 2009)
Auburn (#1 in 2010; #2 in 2013)
Georgia (#2 in 2007; #5 in 2012)
South Carolina (#4 in 2013)
Arkansas (#5 in 2011)
Missouri (#5 in 2013)
Texas A&M (#5 in 2012)
So during a period of SEC football in which one team has been so thoroughly dominant, winning 4 National Titles in just 10 years time, the SEC has also produced 8 other programs to have a Top 5 finish combining for a total of 12 Top 5 finishes.
Contrast with basketball. What the SEC has accomplished in football the past 10 seasons (aside from Alabama) is the exact equivalent of what we've accomplished throughout the entire history of the SEC in basketball (outside of Kentucky).
Aside from Kentucky, the SEC has produced just 12 AP Top 5 finishes in basketball.... also from among 8 different programs: LSU had 3; Florida and Mississippi State have 2; Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt each have 1.
Of course the Final AP poll comes out prior to the NCAA Tournament. But just look at Final Fours and you'll get a similar number. The SEC has produced 13 Final Four appearances other than Kentucky: Florida has 5 (1994, 2000, 2006, 2007, 2014); LSU has 4 (1953, 1981, 1986, 2006); Arkansas has 2 (1994, 1995), Georgia (1983); Mississippi State (1996).
Kentucky kept this league down for decades.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 1:29 pm to GenesChin
quote:
I'd give the nod to Mississippi St over Auburn, but to say they are 2 tiers above Auburn feels pretty absurd
Everyone not named Kentucky, Arkansas, and Florida are so jam packed together, it wouldn't take much for any team to pass another one of those 11 in the pecking order.
Mississippi State is without a doubt ahead of Auburn:
NCAA Tournament Appearances:
MSU- 10
AU- 8
Sweet 16 Appearances:
AU- 4
MSU- 3
Final Four Appearances:
MSU- 1
AU- 0
That Final Four puts MSU in a different tier. However, if Bruce Pearl were to take Auburn to the Final Four next season, that one accomplishment would be enough for Auburn to pass MSU in the pecking order. They'd even up the Final Four's.... they'd likely take the lead in Sweet 16's by 2... with MSU leading in overall appearances by just 1 or maybe 2. Auburn would for sure be out front at that point.
But its the same with every team that comes in #4 through #14... it wouldn't take much for any of those teams to shoot up ahead of the others. Why is that? Because there isn't much to celebrate between all of those 11 programs combined.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 1:56 pm to Hawgeye
Kentucky
Arkansas, Florida
LSU
Alabama, Tennessee
everyone else
Arkansas, Florida
LSU
Alabama, Tennessee
everyone else
This post was edited on 1/19/17 at 2:13 pm
Posted on 1/19/17 at 2:10 pm to Korin
There is close to zero separation between Alabama and Tennessee in reality.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 2:11 pm to volfan30
quote:
There is close to zero separation between Alabama and Tennessee in reality.
It's pretty crazy how much of mirror images they are. They are basically within 1 or 2 spots/wins/totals in every category, even down to NCAA Appearances and yet not getting to the FF.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 2:13 pm to volfan30
quote:
There is close to zero separation between Alabama and Tennessee in reality.
You're right. I though UA had more SEC titles.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 2:18 pm to Hawgeye
I wouldn't include Arkansas, a school who has been to a whopping 2 NCAA tournaments in the past 10 years as one of the "BIG 3"
You try too hard Hawgeye
You try too hard Hawgeye
Posted on 1/19/17 at 2:20 pm to Al Bundy Bulldog
Well they have an NCAA title and solid history up through the 90s.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 2:22 pm to Al Bundy Bulldog
quote:
I wouldn't include Arkansas, a school who has been to a whopping 2 NCAA tournaments in the past 10 years as one of the "BIG 3"
Well, I guess that is why this isn't about just the last 10 years
Posted on 1/19/17 at 2:49 pm to kywildcatfanone
quote:
There are only 2 sports that matter. Everything else is title IV stuff that no one watches.
I can agree. I mean, if the University I cast my faith to went from being a powerhouse to middle of the conference in sports... well yes...
I do think you are somewhat above Ole Miss right now so that is something to be thrilled about.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 5:34 pm to Al Bundy Bulldog
quote:
I wouldn't include Arkansas, a school who has been to a whopping 2 NCAA tournaments in the past 10 years as one of the "BIG 3"
You try too hard Hawgeye
Nobody is trying hard at all. Nice attempt at a shitty troll, or just being flat out stupid.
And its actually 3 over the last ten years. Which is one more than the program you're a fan of has been to during that same span. All indications point to Arkansas making the field again this season, which would make 2 trips in the last 4 years.
So basically....Arkansas can do in the last three years, 1/5 of what the Miss State program has done all time in its history.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 5:43 pm to TheDude321
quote:
But we were just talking about BEFORE Arkansas joined the SEC
Yea, and you obviously do not understand my point.
You're arguing that Arkansas didn't have to play in the SEC, therefore what was accomplished prior to 1991 should be thrown to the curb. Obviously, you're wrong.
The point is, if the SEC was so tough, then why did Arkansas come into the league in 1991 and run roughshod over the league and win it 2 times in its first 4 years? Why did Arkansas end Kentucky's home winning streak of umpteen something games when they came into the league? How in the world could a program you're attempting to discard historically, come in and win 11 games in a row over LSU(then considered SEC #2 when Arkansas joined)and win 19/22 meetings, in what most LSU fans consider the "Golden Age" of LSU basketball?
You've attempted to discredit what Arkansas did in the 1970's & 1980's. The fact is though, that did not change when Arkansas joined the SEC. So, your assumption holds no water.
Posted on 1/19/17 at 5:48 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:
Like that time when LSU demolished Arkansas in the 1981 Sweet 16.
In New Orleans. Congrats on winning a home game in the NCAA Tourney.
Unfortunately for you, the best teams Dale Brown had at LSU never beat Arkansas.
quote:
And of Arkansas' 6 Final Four appearances, 2 of them came when the tournament only invited 8 teams. Congrats on those first round wins in the early 40s.
So now you just want to start discrediting all of college basketball Final Four appearances? Brilliant.
Arkansas has been to 6 Final Fours spanning 3 different decades. 2 of the decades with multiple Final Four trips. Arkansas as a program averages nearly 18 wins per season in just 93 years as a program.
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