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re: Merry Christmas! Jesus died for our sins
Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:14 pm to Hogfan13
Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:14 pm to Hogfan13
quote:
I have not found that to be the case. I don't know where you would come up with that (it's not like there's a survey every historical scholar has to take).
From reading historical scholarship.
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Are there debates about dates, timing, exact locations, things of that nature? Sure. Jesus's life is pretty well documented in secular, Christian, and non-Christian religious writings.
This is not true at all. We have almost no reliable information about Jesus' life except what's in the canonical Gospels.
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Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:19 pm to BC_t_AD
quote:
Turn from your sin and believe the good news!! He will save you, and I don’t care what you’ve done.
So the good news is Jesus returning from Heaven to condemn half of humanity to a genocide on Earth because we don't believe in a book written 2000 years ago with no evidence to support it?
Why is he waiting so long? He'll have to condemn more people because Christianity is in the decline in America. Seems like he'd want to get on the ball.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:27 pm to whatkindanameiskirby
quote:
So the good news is Jesus returning from Heaven to condemn half of humanity to a genocide on Earth because we don't believe in a book written 2000 years ago with no evidence to support it?
If you had evidence that Jesus was real and who the Bible claimed, what would you do with the knowledge?
Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:33 pm to Notrub14
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We have almost no reliable information about Jesus' life except what's in the canonical Gospels.
Josephus, Thallus, Julius Africanus, Tacitus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Phlegon, Pliny, Suetonius, Lucian, Celsus, the Talmud...these are a few that are typically mentioned.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:39 pm to whatkindanameiskirby
quote:
a book written 2000 years ago with no evidence to support it?
The evidence is there. The interpretation of the evidence is the real question. 10 people can look at the same evidence and interpret it 10 different ways. This is true of science as well, especially the more complicated the topic. Take physics for example, and consider all of the opposing views on the origins of the universe. Everyone has the same evidence, but there are a range of interpretations/theories. Yes, we gather more evidence every day, but the point remains true. Does this mean physics isn't real? Nope. It just proves humans aren't all knowing or perfect.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:48 pm to whatkindanameiskirby
He will come again when the saints are persecuted and many will die as others will accept a mark and then perish. He will rule as the meek will inherit the earth. Humanity is destined for destruction and Jesus will save the righteous while destroying governments that are committing heinous crimes.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 4:55 pm to Hogfan13
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Josephus, Thallus, Julius Africanus, Tacitus, Mara Bar-Serapion, Phlegon, Pliny, Suetonius, Lucian, Celsus, the Talmud...these are a few that are typically mentioned.
I started typing out author by author the limited nature of what can be gleaned from all of the sources that you mention about Jesus. But I don't think that's worth it. Some of the sources you mentioned are helpful and confirmatory for the basic claim that Jesus existed and was crucified under Pontius Pilate. None of them a very helpful for confirming anything beyond that.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:11 pm to Notrub14
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This is only partly true. The overwhelming consensus among scholars is that Jesus existed. However, most historical scholars doubt the historicity of large parts of the Gospels.
When you say the Gospels, do you mean the synoptic Gospels or do you mean the 4 gospels or do you mean the Christian Bible as conceived by either Catholic or Protestant sources?
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:12 pm to Prof
quote:
When you say the Gospels, do you mean the synoptic Gospels or do you mean the 4 gospels or do you mean the Christian Bible as conceived by either Catholic or Protestant sources?
I mean the 4 canonical gospels.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:15 pm to BC_t_AD
Jesus was born to die for us, He is the reason for the season
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:23 pm to bamameister
quote:
Merry Christmas!
What he said is Truth....every kneel will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ Jesus is Lord.
He 8s the first and last, the alpha and omega. He is coming again and very soon
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:23 pm to bamameister
quote:
Just not on December 25th. I love a good story as much as anyone but there is enough mythology associated with that date to fill up a library.
No one cares.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:35 pm to bamameister
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Just not on December 25th. I
Likely true.
But, he never opted out or forfeited, so he's okay by me
Happy Birthday!
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:36 pm to Notrub14
Look, I get it. As I said, the evidence is there. Interpretations vary. Usually, but not always, based on a person's worldview when they first view the evidence. That is not meant to be derogatory or condescending in any way. Someone raised in a Christian church will likely view the evidence in a certain way. It goes both ways.
But as for the evidence - 2000 years is a long time. The fact that we have 4 eyewitness accounts that agree as much as they do (if you ever have multiple eyewitness accounts that all say the same exact thing, word for word, you'll know they've scripted it together FYI), is pretty amazing.
If we had something similar regarding something normal, or far less extraordinary than the claims in the gospels, we would almost certainly all agree that it was historically true/accurate. The extraordinary claims understandably change the game. I get that.
All one can do is review the evidence, and make their decision. But again, the extraordinary claims make it impossible to leave it there. If you come down on the side that it's true, you should not, and many CANNOT, just keep that to yourself. Not if you care about people.
On the flip side, if you decide it's not true, well you obviously don't want these crazies trying to tell you how to live your life.
Jesus himself said he would cause such a division. Reference Luke 12, I think around verse 48 or 49. Again, I get it.
Finally, I also understand that the worst thing about Christianity is Christians. Generally speaking, we're pretty awful. These conversations would go a lot better if we all actually acted like Jesus taught we should act. Not gonna lie - it's hard! It's a struggle. We are supposed to understand that all humans are deeply flawed, and that's why we need Jesus to begin with. Unfortunately, many of us apparently love to believe that we are less flawed than those around us (or at least that our flaws are somehow less serious). I know I'm guilty as much as anyone else, and I apologize for that.
At the end of the day, all I desire is a civil conversation about it. No name calling, no acting like someone is stupid for believing differently. Just an honest, friendly discussion. My charge is to have that discussion with as many people as possible. The outcome is not up to me. When it's done, I just want to walk away feeling like two adults had a thoughtful and dignified conversation. I'm sure you expect the same. Unfortunately, I doubt either of us get that very often.
But as for the evidence - 2000 years is a long time. The fact that we have 4 eyewitness accounts that agree as much as they do (if you ever have multiple eyewitness accounts that all say the same exact thing, word for word, you'll know they've scripted it together FYI), is pretty amazing.
If we had something similar regarding something normal, or far less extraordinary than the claims in the gospels, we would almost certainly all agree that it was historically true/accurate. The extraordinary claims understandably change the game. I get that.
All one can do is review the evidence, and make their decision. But again, the extraordinary claims make it impossible to leave it there. If you come down on the side that it's true, you should not, and many CANNOT, just keep that to yourself. Not if you care about people.
On the flip side, if you decide it's not true, well you obviously don't want these crazies trying to tell you how to live your life.
Jesus himself said he would cause such a division. Reference Luke 12, I think around verse 48 or 49. Again, I get it.
Finally, I also understand that the worst thing about Christianity is Christians. Generally speaking, we're pretty awful. These conversations would go a lot better if we all actually acted like Jesus taught we should act. Not gonna lie - it's hard! It's a struggle. We are supposed to understand that all humans are deeply flawed, and that's why we need Jesus to begin with. Unfortunately, many of us apparently love to believe that we are less flawed than those around us (or at least that our flaws are somehow less serious). I know I'm guilty as much as anyone else, and I apologize for that.
At the end of the day, all I desire is a civil conversation about it. No name calling, no acting like someone is stupid for believing differently. Just an honest, friendly discussion. My charge is to have that discussion with as many people as possible. The outcome is not up to me. When it's done, I just want to walk away feeling like two adults had a thoughtful and dignified conversation. I'm sure you expect the same. Unfortunately, I doubt either of us get that very often.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:41 pm to Notrub14
quote:
I mean the 4 canonical gospels.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Most don't include John when searching for historical evidence because John has been understood as a symbolic gospel since the early days of the church. The primary theory is that Luke and Matthew draw upon Mark as a source*** whereas John draws on other source materials. One of those sources is likely the Gospel of Thomas which is considered a 'gnostic' Gospel but the parallels between Thomas and John are as bright and clear as the ones that Matthew, Mark, and Luke share amongst themselves.
The synoptic Gospels (aka Matthew, Luke, and John) tell a very different story from John. One of the best examples is that in the first three you have the Last Supper but in John, Jesus is described as being that supper (the lamb of God served up as a sacrifice for humanity). John repeats that imagery throughout and paints the Jesus movement as diverging more and more from other Jewish sects. It also describes conflicts a bit differently but let's just leave it at -- John is quite different.
***This is so-called Marcan Priority which is a well accepted theory but still a debated one.
At any rate, there's not even an accepted agreement on whether or not a single source or Q document exists for the synoptic Gospels, you're not going to find an accepted agreement or disagreement on something as broad as the events among all 4 even assuming that you narrowed it down to events they describe in common.
This post was edited on 12/25/21 at 5:44 pm
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:41 pm to Che Boludo
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But, he never opted out or forfeited, so he's okay by me
Technically he asked to be taken out of the game but God said no
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:51 pm to Hogfan13
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We are supposed to understand that all humans are deeply flawed, and that's why we need Jesus to begin with.
This is such a weird concept.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:51 pm to PaulsBunions
Merry Christmas All!
For myself, I would rather live my life as a believer in Christ. Then not believe and when I die and met God. Wish I had believed.
For myself, I would rather live my life as a believer in Christ. Then not believe and when I die and met God. Wish I had believed.
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:58 pm to Reeves40
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Then not believe and when I die and met God.
What if you believe and meet God and he says "nope you picked the wrong one"
Posted on 12/25/21 at 5:59 pm to BC_t_AD
Amen. Not going to read this entire thread of posts because I am sure a number of them are from sad atheists who love to shite on God and religion.
Merry Christmas to you and everyone. Jesus is the reason for the season
Merry Christmas to you and everyone. Jesus is the reason for the season
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