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Is Saban a just above average coach propped by the best players in CFB?

Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:44 am
Posted by i am dan
NC
Member since Aug 2011
24692 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:44 am
Just trying to start an interesting conversation that Bama fans will hate. I know it will sound like an a-hole post, but here we go.

I'm gonna be that typical anti-Bama poster for a minute I guess. Just something I believe many of us think...

We now see how important it is to get the best talent in the country because of what Saban and Alabama is going through this year. And we all know Bama's defense has a different, not so intimidating feel to it this year. They've allowed more points this year than Bama defenses of the past. I'm not shaming them here. All of our teams wish we could have their success. Don't lie!

Points allowed by Bama defense this year:

South Carolina - 23
Miss - 31
aTm - 28
Tenn - 13 (with ref's help) sorry, had to make a joke.

Bama has some very impressive outings as well on defense. Don't get me wrong.

And I'm only talking about DEFENSE here, since that is Saban's thang.

They have consistently been able to play high 4* and 5* players at every position (and usually 2 deep). They still do have those 5* and high 4* players, but now those players are lacking a little experience due to having to play because of injured starters, and it shows. This is something every other team doesn't even get to "deal with" every year. Other teams are playing 3* and maybe a few 4* players. That's why we're not good all the time. Go figure right?

Of course, this is one of the prime reasons for Saban and Bama's run. Recruiting has been exceptional at Bama for a while now. Jimmies and Joes.

We know Bama's defense is not there this year. Even Bama fans acknowledge this. Welcome, Bama fans, to the world of the rest of us. This is what happens when Saban can't throw all 1st round picks out there. Their defense becomes almost mediocre. Many of these young players will become first and second round picks though. One thing to consider Bama fans... these young supreme players who are struggling a bit right now are getting great experience and it will pay dividends in the future.

There's a reason other teams go through ups and downs every few years. Quality of players.

Saban is a really good coach, don't get me wrong. Give him the recruits the rest of us get and I think he is above average, not great. I know it sounds like I'm knocking him, I am a bit of course. I mean this is the rant right and I AM an Auburn fan.


I'm not pulling for LSU or Bama in the game. I just want to see an entertaining game. That's all. And I think this will be one of the more exciting Bama/LSU games in a loooong time. Offenses gonna go crazy.

But, I do feel like this is LSU's game to lose, because I feel LSU's defense will be the winning factor. Looking forward to a good game.

This post was edited on 11/1/19 at 10:48 am
Posted by lsufancm5
Baton Rouge
Member since Oct 2019
27 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:47 am to
GOAT recruiter but not GOAT Coach. When Saban matches up against a team with equal talent and good enough coaching = 44-16.
Lest us also not forget Cardale Jones the 3rd Stringer beating Saban. GOAT coaches don't lose to 3rd String quarterbacks.
Posted by RollTide1987
Augusta, GA
Member since Nov 2009
64952 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:48 am to
I think that loss to OSU had more to do with Ezekiel Elliot running all over us than it did Cardale Jones.
This post was edited on 11/1/19 at 10:49 am
Posted by Teague
The Shoals, AL
Member since Aug 2007
21671 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:52 am to
You guys can explain it however you want. We're happy to have him. Good job on your wall of text nobody will read.
Posted by SummerOfGeorge
Member since Jul 2013
102699 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:53 am to
quote:

They have consistently been able to play high 4* and 5* players at every position (and usually 2 deep). They still do have those 5* and high 4* players, but now those players are lacking a little experience due to having to play because of injured starters, and it shows. This is something every other team doesn't even get to "deal with" every year. Other teams are playing 3* and maybe a few 4* players. That's why we're not good all the time. Go figure right?


Our 2008 and 2009 teams were made up of starters that were mostly 3 stars/4 stars with a couple freshman 5-stars sprinkled in. They went 26-2, won a national title, nearly won another, ended the Florida dynasty and had 2 undefeated regular seasons.

I mean, I get the general argument, but his programs both recruit at a high level and develop at a high level. He's an elite evaluator. He and his staff is elite at development. So, I guess it depends if development is considering coaching or not? I think it is, but most of the time these discussions seemed geared around in-game coaching.

It's kind of hard to separate those things, IMHO, but yea if he had worse players he'd probably lose more. I don't think there is any doubt there.

It's just harder in football to separate recruiting, development and "coaching" into 3 different silos.
This post was edited on 11/1/19 at 10:55 am
Posted by i am dan
NC
Member since Aug 2011
24692 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:53 am to
I guess my OP really asks this..

If you gave Atm's defense to Saban this year, would he improve it and if so, by how much?

Interesting question. Can he put a top10 defense on the field with fewer elite athletes?

Maybe that question has been answered. I know this is a pointed thread. But it's Friday, and I'm bored.
This post was edited on 11/1/19 at 10:55 am
Posted by MightyYat
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2009
24348 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:53 am to
Saban isn't some super X's and O's guru. He's been outcoached a ton in his coaching career. But let's not act like recruiting isn't the #1 part of being successful in college football. That's why he's great here and was below average in the NFL where the playing field is leveled.

Imagine if there was no salary cap in the NFL and Jerry Jones could just build a Hall of Fame roster year in and year out.
Posted by AHM21
Member since Feb 2008
24474 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:54 am to
quote:

GOAT recruiter but not GOAT Coach. When Saban matches up against a team with equal talent and good enough coaching = 44-16.






The worst loss Saban has had at Alabama doesn't equal "that's what happens when he meets a team with equal talent."

LSU fans are awful.
Posted by i am dan
NC
Member since Aug 2011
24692 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:54 am to
quote:

You guys can explain it however you want. We're happy to have him. Good job on your wall of text nobody will read.


Did you read it? You must have. And try to keep the thread positive. We're just talking. Get your panties out of your arse.
Posted by i am dan
NC
Member since Aug 2011
24692 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:55 am to
quote:

and was below average in the NFL where the playing field is leveled.


Ummm, the NFL is certainly not a level playing field.
Posted by SummerOfGeorge
Member since Jul 2013
102699 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:55 am to
quote:

Interesting question. Can he put a top10 defense on the field with fewer elite athletes?



We had great defenses in 2008 and 2009 with Javier Arenas (2-star), Corey Reamer (3-star), Brandon Deaderick (3-star), Terrance Cody (3-star), Rashad Johnson (0-star) and others.

I think the biggest thing is experience. Nobody is going to have a lot of consistent success with a defense filled with inexperienced kids, especially at the most important spots.
This post was edited on 11/1/19 at 10:56 am
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118666 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:57 am to
quote:

GOAT recruiter but not GOAT Coach.


This.

Saban always has the most talent on the field. He wins games in February (now December too) on national signing day.

When your players can win on one on one match ups it makes coaching so easy. That what Saban does.

This is evidenced by his time spent in the NFL were parity reigns supreme. Saban was barely 500. He was just an average coach getting ready to spiral down hill. He left the Dolphins at the right time and got a gig at bama were he could put is recruiting skills to work. That is what Saban is the greatest of all time at, recruiting.

On a side note for people that are Saints fans, Saban gave the Saints a Superbowl due to his terrible decision of picking Dante Culpepper to lead the Dolphins over Drew Brees.
Posted by Tigerdog5
RTWFY
Member since Oct 2019
139 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:57 am to
GOAT recruiter but not GOAT Coach. When Saban matches up against a team with equal talent and good enough coaching = 44-16.

GOAT @ paying recruits $$$$$$


Posted by BallsEleven
Member since Mar 2019
6163 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:58 am to
I think what makes him in the conversation (if not outright) GOAT college coach is that he is one of the best recruiters AND the fact that he emphasizes perfection of the basics in the game. A lot like Skip Bertman, it is unusual to see a Saban coached team screw up the little things throughout a game.
Posted by i am dan
NC
Member since Aug 2011
24692 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 10:58 am to
quote:

Terrance Cody (3-star)


Wasn't he the 400lb noseguard? I know he wasn't 400, but that dude was tough to run at.
Posted by secuniversity
Member since May 2015
5681 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 11:00 am to
quote:

When Saban matches up against a team with equal talent and good enough coaching = 44-16.


Had lesser talent than UF and Texas. Beat both for titles.

Had equal talent to LSU in 2011. Beat for title.

Had equal talent to Clemson in 2015. Beat for title.

Had equal talent to UGA in 2017. Beat for title.

Had equal talent to UGA in 2018. Beat for title.

quote:

GOAT recruiter


Part of being a coach.
Posted by TideFaninFl
On the space coast
Member since Oct 2017
6620 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 11:00 am to
quote:

GOAT recruiter but not GOAT Coach. When Saban matches up against a team with equal talent and good enough coaching = 44-16.


Alabama leads all Power 5 schools with 17 games over the past three years against teams that finished the season ranked in the final Associated Press Top 25 poll. The Crimson Tide are 14-3 in those games, including a 4-2 record in the College Football Playoff.

Even Coach Bryant lost to inferior teams occasionally..

Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118666 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 11:01 am to
quote:

Ummm, the NFL is certainly not a level playing field.


In terms of fielding a team and opportunities for teams to win, it certainly is.

The NFL is separated by coaching ability and the GM assembling the team with the right talent at the right price.
Posted by armtackledawg
Member since Aug 2017
11914 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 11:02 am to
Congratulations on asking the most ridiculous question ever on the Rant. Above average coaches don't win 5 or 6 titles or whatever he has. GOAT-tier coaches do.
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118666 posts
Posted on 11/1/19 at 11:04 am to
quote:

Had equal talent to LSU in 2011. Beat for title.

Had equal talent to Clemson in 2015. Beat for title.

Had equal talent to UGA in 2017. Beat for title.

Had equal talent to UGA in 2018. Beat for title.



All those years prior bama was winning recruiting national championships on 247 composite rankings.
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