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re: Coaches vs. AP Top 25 teams
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:05 pm to Pettifogger
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:05 pm to Pettifogger
Leach is a high floor/low ceiling guy who adds in all his funky quirks and entertainment. He is the type of guy, both as a guy and as a coach, that definitely needs to be at a place that "fits" culturally and expectation wise.
I don't think there are a whole ton of SEC schools where that fit makes sense - most of them are in the second/third tier historically (Ole Miss, State, Arkansas, Kentucky, maybe Missouri/South Carolina).
He'd be an awful fit at a place like Tennessee, IMHO.
I don't think there are a whole ton of SEC schools where that fit makes sense - most of them are in the second/third tier historically (Ole Miss, State, Arkansas, Kentucky, maybe Missouri/South Carolina).
He'd be an awful fit at a place like Tennessee, IMHO.
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Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:07 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
That is not the same as an SEC team losing to the Georgia's, Florida's and maybe on occasion a Missouri. That's like losing to Vandy or a team like them every single season.
Yes - he'd lose to the Top 5 type teams almost every time and then win 1-2 he wasn't supposed to and lose 1-2 he wasn't supposed to.
He'd be an average 8-4 (4-4) type coach with some years that went 6-6/7-5 and the occasional team where it all came together and they went 9-3 or so.
Like I said, he's a high floor/low ceiling guy, but he's pretty consistently the same once he gets his program in place. Anyplace he goes has to be the right fit. Right now he's in a great fit, and like I said I'm not sure there are many SEC spots that are good fits. Arkansas, though, seems to be one of them.
This post was edited on 9/25/19 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:09 pm to BHMKyle
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But at the same time, he plays in the PAC 12 North and doesn't have to face near the competition he would if he coached in the SEC West. So yeah, he's at a program with fewer resources and the ability to recruit. But he also plays in a conference that quite frankly is barely above the Mountain West right now with the exception of a couple teams.
I don't have a problem with recognizing that as well, but he still has to face Utah, Oregon, Cal and Washington. I just think you look at every single coach on that list and what coach is at a worse school? I don't think there is one. That being said, I wouldn't try to argue that Leach is a top 10 coach. Just don't think he is overrated.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:12 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
Leach is a high floor/low ceiling guy who adds in all his funky quirks and entertainment. He is the type of guy, both as a guy and as a coach, that definitely needs to be at a place that "fits" culturally and expectation wise.
I don't think there are a whole ton of SEC schools where that fit makes sense - most of them are in the second/third tier historically (Ole Miss, State, Arkansas, Kentucky, maybe Missouri/South Carolina).
He'd be an awful fit at a place like Tennessee, IMHO.
In a bubble/on paper he'd be bad at Tennessee. But I kind of wonder if they're not broken enough that a Leach experiment could at least bring them back to competitive footing and they could follow that up with a more "traditional" coach. The answer is probably not.
Leach needs a program where he can "be" the program. Anywhere the vibe is "coach, when you put on that Tennessee orange you're following in the footsteps of..." just isn't gonna work.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:12 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
He'd be an average 8-4 (4-4) type coach with some years that went 6-6/7-5 and the occasional team where it all came together and they went 9-3 or so.
Like I said, he's a high floor/low ceiling guy, but he's pretty consistently the same once he gets his program in place.
We can agree to disagree, but I just think the bottom of the SEC is way different than the bottom of the PAC 12. The PAC 12 has produced some absolutely horrific teams in years past.... not to mention Wazzu plays probably one of the easiest OOC slates of any power program in most years...
So its like he starts at a guaranteed 5 wins or so every single year and so if he wins three other games against 7-5 type teams, everyone wants to throw him a parade for his accomplishment of winning 8 games.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:13 pm to rockiee
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I don't have a problem with recognizing that as well, but he still has to face Utah, Oregon, Cal and Washington. I just think you look at every single coach on that list and what coach is at a worse school? I don't think there is one. That being said, I wouldn't try to argue that Leach is a top 10 coach. Just don't think he is overrated.
Yea - and I think the argument that "I'd love to see him at a "insert big name school" type school and see what he could do" is kind of off the mark. I'm not sure what he does is any better with better players and better athletes. I'm not sure his whole schtick works with those players. I'm not sure his whole attitude and style works as a Top 10 team in huge games and all that.
I think his whole system/style/program/etc is made for an underdog program who has to think outside the box to compete. He has a system that can equalize, to an extent, less talent against better (but not great) talent. And, he's at places with expectations level that aren't beyond what he can accomplish.
All that goes out the window at Tennessee or Florida or Auburn. All the goofy funny Leach stuff turns into irritating, annoying stuff when he's 6-4 in year 5 and hasn't won the West or the SEC yet.
This post was edited on 9/25/19 at 12:16 pm
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:14 pm to BHMKyle
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You could also likely put Jeremy Pruitt and Chad Morris at Washington State and watch them win 8 games per year.
Not sure what evidence you have to suggest that. Chad has had 5 years as a head coach and never reached 8. Maybe he could have done it in year 4 of SMU but that still isn't a schedule like Washington St.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:15 pm to BHMKyle
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the bottom of the SEC is way different than the bottom of the PAC 12
Have you checked the bottom of the SEC lately? It's about as bottom of the barrel as you can get right now.
quote:
So its like he starts at a guaranteed 5 wins or so every single year and so if he wins three other games against 7-5 type teams, everyone wants to throw him a parade for his accomplishment of winning 8 games.
Here's the thing - if he consistently goes 7-5/8-4/9-3 at Arkansas right now I'm guessing guys like rockiee would be pretty dang happy considering the last 7 years.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:15 pm to BHMKyle
NVM
This post was edited on 9/25/19 at 12:17 pm
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:16 pm to rockiee
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quote:
You could also likely put Jeremy Pruitt and Chad Morris at Washington State and watch them win 8 games per year.
Not sure what evidence you have to suggest that. Chad has had 5 years as a head coach and never reached 8. Maybe he could have done it in year 4 of SMU but that still isn't a schedule like Washington St.
Agreed, it goes both ways. You can't take a traditional "mediocre" coach and replicate the success of an eccentric "great" coach.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:17 pm to BHMKyle
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BHMKyle
Thanks for objectively and reasonably slapping around that moron you responded to.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:19 pm to yatesdog38
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Where is Dan Mullen?
In the cathedral tower.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:20 pm to SummerOfGeorge
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Yea - and I think the argument that "I'd love to see him at a "insert big name school" type school and see what he could do" is kind of off the mark.
Agree, I don't think he would ever pull in top 10 classes no matter how much he won at a big school. He really isn't build that way. He could benefit from recruiting in an easier area but think he fits it better when trying to get players that fit his scheme.
If he somehow ended up at Arkansas. The standard wouldn't be beating Bama, Auburn or LSU every year. It would be taking care of MSU, Ole Miss, A&M and maybe one of the east teams most years. For as much as Petrino, rightly, gets praise for his time at Arkansas. He got close to beating Saban one year at home. Hell, Bert did a better job of keeping the Bama games close.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:20 pm to BHMKyle
Am I the only one impressed with Mike Gundy? Accomplishing this at Okie St. is impressive. he is rarely the higher ranked team.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:20 pm to Auburn80
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Am I the only one impressed with Mike Gundy? Accomplishing this at Okie St. is impressive. he is rarely the higher ranked team.
Yep - he's a very solid football coach. I do wonder if he listens one more time to another job now that Pickens is gone (RIP).
This post was edited on 9/25/19 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:21 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
I just think the bottom of the SEC is way different than the bottom of the PAC 12
I guess it depends on how many teams you want to start with but the bottom 4 of the SEC is about as bad as it gets imo.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:22 pm to rockiee
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If he somehow ended up at Arkansas. The standard wouldn't be beating Bama, Auburn or LSU every year. It would be taking care of MSU, Ole Miss, A&M and maybe one of the east teams most years. For as much as Petrino, rightly, gets praise for his time at Arkansas. He got close to beating Saban one year at home. Hell, Bert did a better job of keeping the Bama games close.
It's kind of like Mullen at State. Mullen won 8 games a year at State with the same general formula - he won his crappy OOC games, he beat the teams below and around him and he lost (most of the time) to the elite teams on their schedule.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:22 pm to Auburn80
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Am I the only one impressed with Mike Gundy?
Nope, Leach and Gundy have a lot of similarities to me. I think Gundy is the better coach though and obviously hasn't been as goofy most of the time.
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:24 pm to rockiee
quote:
Nope, Leach and Gundy have a lot of similarities to me. I think Gundy is the better coach though and obviously hasn't been as goofy most of the time.
Gundy's most impressive trait to me is how much he's shifted his style of play to fit the guys he has.
They have been everything from an air raid team to almost an Auburn 2010 style shotgun option run team in his time there.
This post was edited on 9/25/19 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 9/25/19 at 12:24 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
It's kind of like Mullen at State. Mullen won 8 games a year at State with the same general formula - he won his crappy OOC games, he beat the teams below and around him and he lost (most of the time) to the elite teams on their schedule.
Yep and I think that is the disconnect here with Kyle. He was pretty anti-Mullen when most though he was doing a very solid job because he never won the "big games".
I know he didn't qualify but will be interesting to see where Mullen ends up after 10 games at Florida, he has had a good start.
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