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re: 2020 US News Best National Universities
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:33 am to EKG
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:33 am to EKG
quote:
Why do some of y’all get so worked up over these lists?
I couldn’t be more proud of and grateful for my university, regardles
It is not the fans that are worked up over these list. The Universities themselves that use these lists to promote their product. That is why I said the schools are selling out their own citizens (especially in Alabama) in pursuit of moving up these list. Some schools are paying students to attend in order to boost some of the other students scores so they can remain on the list. Then they raise tuition for everyone.
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Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:34 am to Irons Puppet
quote:
That is why I said the schools are selling out their own citizens (especially in Alabama) in pursuit of moving up these list.
I agree with your general point re: all the out of state kids and the detriment of the state, but I think Alabama is doing it to make more money. They are actually falling on these lists due to it.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:41 am to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
I agree with your general point re: all the out of state kids and the detriment of the state, but I think Alabama is doing it to make more money. They are actually falling on these lists due to it.
It is for the purpose of money, but is also used to boost scores. Talk to any guidance counselor in Alabama and they will tell you that Bama is accepting marginal state students with this push to increase enrollment, so they have to go after the OOSs with higher scores to counter that fact. I know a student that never even considered Bama that had very high scores, when Bama offered to literally pay her to attend, she couldn't refuse. Auburn is selling out also. States like CA and NC realized that other states citizens were using their schools to get a quality education and blocking out their own people, so they put a cap on OOS enrollment (18%). Alabama is too greedy to even try that, but the locals are getting restless.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:43 am to YodaWithALightSaber
So, OP, when UA was ranked ahead of Auburn for most of the last 15 years, was it really a better school than Auburn? The criteria for this ranking have significantly changed in the last five years, and schools like UA are now suddenly ranked far lower than before.
The real thing to notice is where do the top students (ACT of 32 or higher) go? UA is among the top four or five schools in the SEC for attracting those students. Auburn is way behind.
The real thing to notice is where do the top students (ACT of 32 or higher) go? UA is among the top four or five schools in the SEC for attracting those students. Auburn is way behind.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:45 am to Irons Puppet
quote:
It is for the purpose of money, but is also used to boost scores. Talk to any guidance counselor in Alabama and they will tell you that Bama is accepting marginal state students with this push to increase enrollment, so they have to go after the OOSs with higher scores to counter that fact
Oh, yes, absolutely. Totally agree with that. They want to be able to list their 25-75% ACT scores higher, and they can't do that solely with in-state kids.
quote:
States like CA and NC realized that other states citizens were using their schools to get a quality education and blocking out their own people, so they put a cap on OOS enrollment (18%). Alabama is too greedy to even try that, but the locals are getting restless.
Yep - though, California/North Carolina/Georgia/Florida have an easier time doing that because the population of high achieving students is a lot higher. They can still hit those metrics with mostly in-state kids. Alabama and Auburn can't.
I'm ok with bringing in out of state kids, but an out of state population > 50% is absolutely ridiculous. There are positives to out of state kids, but there is a tipping point and Alabama has long since passe that point IMHO.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:45 am to Irons Puppet
quote:
quote:
I agree with your general point re: all the out of state kids and the detriment of the state, but I think Alabama is doing it to make more money. They are actually falling on these lists due to it.
It is for the purpose of money, but is also used to boost scores. Talk to any guidance counselor in Alabama and they will tell you that Bama is accepting marginal state students with this push to increase enrollment, so they have to go after the OOSs with higher scores to counter that fact. I know a student that never even considered Bama that had very high scores, when Bama offered to literally pay her to attend, she couldn't refuse. Auburn is selling out also. States like CA and NC realized that other states citizens were using their schools to get a quality education and blocking out their own people, so they put a cap on OOS enrollment (18%). Alabama is too greedy to even try that, but the locals are getting restless.
The "failing on these lists" is due to big changes in the criteria for these rankings. For one thing, merit aid is now devalued!
Just about eight yrs ago, UA was about to crack the top 30 public colleges, then suddenly, even as the quality of its freshman classes was skyrocketing, it falls deeply in the rankings. Makes no sense unless you know that they changed the criteria. So the rankings no longer seem like a good reflection of an attractiveness of a school, at least for top students.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 11:47 am
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:50 am to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
quote:
It is for the purpose of money, but is also used to boost scores. Talk to any guidance counselor in Alabama and they will tell you that Bama is accepting marginal state students with this push to increase enrollment, so they have to go after the OOSs with higher scores to counter that fact
Oh, yes, absolutely. Totally agree with that. They want to be able to list their 25-75% ACT scores higher, and they can't do that solely with in-state kids.
quote:
States like CA and NC realized that other states citizens were using their schools to get a quality education and blocking out their own people, so they put a cap on OOS enrollment (18%). Alabama is too greedy to even try that, but the locals are getting restless.
Yep - though, California/North Carolina/Georgia/Florida have an easier time doing that because the population of high achieving students is a lot higher. They can still hit those metrics with mostly in-state kids. Alabama and Auburn can't.
I'm ok with bringing in out of state kids, but an out of state population > 50% is absolutely ridiculous. There are positives to out of state kids, but there is a tipping point and Alabama has long since passe that point IMHO.
I agree that UA accepts too many marginal in state students, but they have not increased that practice, just continued it. In fact, the bottom 25% has improved a bit over the last 10 years, while the top 25% has greatly improved in quality.
UA could easily fix a few things rep wise if it raised its admission standards just a bit. A big change is not necessary.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:53 am to InGAButLoveBama
Increasing enrollment is dumb any way. What happens when the college bubble bursts? Need to be building internet infrastructure, providing high quality education online anywhere and anytime. That's the future of education.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:53 am to Irons Puppet
quote:
quote:
I agree with your general point re: all the out of state kids and the detriment of the state, but I think Alabama is doing it to make more money. They are actually falling on these lists due to it.
It is for the purpose of money, but is also used to boost scores. Talk to any guidance counselor in Alabama and they will tell you that Bama is accepting marginal state students with this push to increase enrollment, so they have to go after the OOSs with higher scores to counter that fact. I know a student that never even considered Bama that had very high scores, when Bama offered to literally pay her to attend, she couldn't refuse. Auburn is selling out also. States like CA and NC realized that other states citizens were using their schools to get a quality education and blocking out their own people, so they put a cap on OOS enrollment (18%). Alabama is too greedy to even try that, but the locals are getting restless.
In the last two years, UA has started a scholarship program to try to attract more in state students with high GPAs. Any UA freshman who is admitted with a GPA of at least 3.5, and an ACT of at least 21, receives a partial scholarship. If UA had not admitted so many out of state students over the last 15 years, it would not have the funds to afford this. Personally, I think UA should only give schollies to students with an ACT of 24 or higher.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 11:54 am
Posted on 12/21/19 at 11:57 am to allin2010
quote:
re: 2020 US News Best National UniversitiesPosted on 12/20/19 at 2:05 pm to YodaWithALightSaber
These are fun, would not put too much stock into this.
Still surprising to see Alabama fall so much because at one time they were very close to Auburn's ranking.
Auburn fans really think too highly of their schools rep. FYI, for most of the last 15 years, it was UA ranked ahead of Auburn in the USNWR ranking, with Auburn close behind. So don't get it twisted. UA offers more merit aid than Auburn, and due to the devaluing of that in the new criteria, it has fallen significantly in the rankings. But far more top students, as well as lower tier students, now to go to UA than Auburn.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 12/21/19 at 12:02 pm to Irons Puppet
quote:
re: 2020 US News Best National UniversitiesPosted on 12/20/19 at 7:39 pm to jlntiger
Bama has 60% and Auburn has over 35% out of state enrollment in order to chase these list. They are making tuition so high that citizens of Alabama are having to go to JR College to pursue higher education. Citizens of Alabama are getting pushed out of elite programs over kids from NY, CA and TX. Then these kids leave the state of Alabama and never return. California and NC figured it out and capped out of state enrollment, but Alabama Legislators enjoy their free Football tickets.
Absolutely false! UA is not accepting lesser qualified out of state students over QUALIFIED in state students. The lower tier in state students have a ton of schools to attend. UA should not be expected to take them.
Thanks to all of the higher tuition paying OOS, UA can now provide many more schollies to in state students with only decent ACT scores.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 12/21/19 at 12:04 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
quote:
It is for the purpose of money, but is also used to boost scores. Talk to any guidance counselor in Alabama and they will tell you that Bama is accepting marginal state students with this push to increase enrollment, so they have to go after the OOSs with higher scores to counter that fact
Oh, yes, absolutely. Totally agree with that. They want to be able to list their 25-75% ACT scores higher, and they can't do that solely with in-state kids.
They could if they had the enrollment of the 90s (20K).
quote:
Yep - though, California/North Carolina/Georgia/Florida have an easier time doing that because the population of high achieving students is a lot higher. They can still hit those metrics with mostly in-state kids. Alabama and Auburn can't.
I'm ok with bringing in out of state kids, but an out of state population > 50% is absolutely ridiculous. There are positives to out of state kids, but there is a tipping point and Alabama has long since passe that point IMHO.
I know a State Legislator about this issue. He agrees its a problem but the schools have strong lobbyist that block any attempt to cut them off. He told me Whitt told him a few years ago that they were increasing enrollment in hope of increasing the long term endowment of the school, and would do whatever it took to do it.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 12:08 pm to YodaWithALightSaber
I’d like to close my thoughts on this topic by saying this: I’m a university Professor. My best students didn’t attend public nor private schools. They were homeschooled and traveled with their families. They explored, they discovered, and they constructed their own learning.
Each semester I tell my students not to become caught up in higher education.
Do what YOUR SOUL CALLS YOU TO DO.
Because I’m telling you—I’ve had discussions with and attended conferences with top recruiters from Boeing and other successful companies.
They couldn’t give a lick about which school a candidate attended.
They want employees who can communicate, problem solve, and play.
I’ve given many lectures on this topic.
Trust me.
Each semester I tell my students not to become caught up in higher education.
Do what YOUR SOUL CALLS YOU TO DO.
Because I’m telling you—I’ve had discussions with and attended conferences with top recruiters from Boeing and other successful companies.
They couldn’t give a lick about which school a candidate attended.
They want employees who can communicate, problem solve, and play.
I’ve given many lectures on this topic.
Trust me.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 12/21/19 at 12:12 pm to EKG
As long as qualified in state students are not being denied over less qualified out of state students, what is the problem? Can anyone provide proof that UA has accepted less qualified oos over better qualified in state students?
UA is in a poor state and is doing what it must to build up its research programs and fufill its potential. The critics can take a hike.
UA is in a poor state and is doing what it must to build up its research programs and fufill its potential. The critics can take a hike.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 12/21/19 at 12:48 pm to YodaWithALightSaber
Where be The University of Louisiana State University ranked? Asking for a dumbass.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 1:12 pm to EKG
quote:
My best students didn’t attend public nor private schools. They were homeschooled and traveled with their families
Posted on 12/21/19 at 1:13 pm to InGAButLoveBama
quote:
Florida and Georgia, the states, have had similar trajectories in the last 20 years. Lottery scholarships gave guaranteed all of both state's top 10% free rides to in state universities, but UF and UGA can't accommodate demand. Those students trickle out to the other universities in the state, leading to a "rising tide lifts all boats" kind of situation.
A buddy of mine still working at UF told me the acceptance rate at UF next years is expected to be under 20%. That's nuts, and that also means that a lot of really good high school students are going to end up at FSU, USF, UCF, and so on if they want to keep that paid-for college education.
The Florida schools are just as guilty of courting out of state kids as the Alabama schools. My daughter's test scores and GPA are 98th percentile and we are Florida residents and UF and FSU haven't given her the time of day. She has received more mail/email from EVERY other SEC school and elite private schools like Chicago, Dartmouth, Duke, Wake Forest, Cornell, Brown, MIT, and Cal Tech than the 2 state schools in her own back yard. She's been accepted into Bama's honors college with a Presidential Scholarship, Tulane with a Founders Scholarship and an honors invite, Mercer with a Presidential, and she's waiting to hear from Vandy, UNC, and Miami.
She would have an even bigger award from Alabama with the same scores two years ago, but everybody in the state bitched so much about Bama recruiting out of state that they had to raise the thresholds to reduce the pressure from politicians.
UF may boast about their 20% admission rate, but it's a combination of not enough space combined with an exploding population and cherry picking out of state kids too. They don't want the elite in-state kids because Bright Futures lottery money gives them a free ride on tuition; money that has to be wrangled from the legislature. By that, I mean there have been years that the legislature has looked at the lottery contributions, and used it to offset budget cuts to education. It's better and easier to recruit the out of state elites that will just write you a check for the difference between the cost and the merit scholarship.
It's all a big game and everybody's favorite school plays it and in the end, we all pay the price. And they all chase the rankings even though many of them like US News is totally flawed and bullshite but they chase them because too many people make too much of them. It's sad. North Carolina and California actually were smart in capping out of state enrollment. It's reduces the politics involved. But daughter is going to go to Tuscaloosa because she loves it, they at least act like they want her, and are willing to make it affordable. I love Alabama too and I'm happy for her. But it bothers me that she wouldn't even think of an in state school that is considered a top public university by just about everyone because they wouldn't try to attract her. Something is wrong with this system.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 12/21/19 at 1:22 pm to phil4bama
A study showing state schools focus on recruiting out-of-state students from white, wealthy areas labeled the University of Alabama as an “extreme case” of the trend.
“Alabama is far and away the extreme version of this,” Ozan Jacquette, an assistant professor at UCLA and one of the authors of the report, told AL.com
Even after controlling the study for school size, price and number of students that passed statewide exams, “the University of Alabama was one of the few that showed significant racial bias,” Jacquette said.
LINK
Note: Auburn has also become less diversified.
“Alabama is far and away the extreme version of this,” Ozan Jacquette, an assistant professor at UCLA and one of the authors of the report, told AL.com
Even after controlling the study for school size, price and number of students that passed statewide exams, “the University of Alabama was one of the few that showed significant racial bias,” Jacquette said.
LINK
Note: Auburn has also become less diversified.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 1:29 pm to allin2010
I don't doubt this is true. It's easy, low hanging fruit. They recruit those kids knowing mama and daddy can pay if/when the merit money is lost or used up and it's simply a numbers game. Minorities are under represented in the upper middle class. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. So Alabama is following the money. Go figure.
Posted on 12/21/19 at 1:33 pm to PeeJayScammedGT
quote:So your point brings into play what the word best actually means. Are the schools doing well at graduating lowe-income students, or are they producing an intellectually exceptional education.
quote:
The whole bump in rankings for graduating those receiving Pell grants is dumb as hell.
Not really
Colleges deserve to get a bump for that because it is an indicator of how well they serve the students from lower income backgrounds and can they get lower income students to Graduation Day just like they do the rich students
If Colleges & Universities only did a good job of Graduating the upper middle class and rich folks then they would be failing their overall mission
Lower income people have a lot to contribute to Society also, so analyzing how they educate those from that kind of background does have merit
Significant merit IMO
If it's the former, then that explains Alabama's big drop. In the last decade Alabama has tremendously increased its enrollment by actively recruiting out of state students, while charging big tuition fees. I doubt many lower income kids would qualify under that plan.
This post was edited on 12/21/19 at 1:34 pm
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