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The New Testament
Posted on 6/24/16 at 9:17 am
Posted on 6/24/16 at 9:17 am
A question for my Christian friends here, and no, it is not an intent to flame but rather a frustrated conversation I had with my brother.
I was trying to point out the flaw in his opposition to gay marriage, but saw nothing wrong with getting a divorce. My point was that Jesus said nothing on homosexuality, but had VERY strong teachings on divorce. Namely, if you get a divorce, then you and your former spouse basically live in a perpetual state of adultery.
My point was, the covenant with Jesus allows Christians to learn from the Old Testament but are not bound by it. Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality.
That was actually Paul.
My point was that he was lifting the teachings of Paul and his anti-gay statements above the teachings of Jesus and his anti-divorce statements because of simple convenience - because he wasn't gay, he didn't have a problem with anti-gay teachings. Because he DID get a divorce, clearly the anti-divorce teachings were either out of context, or could be rationalized.
My point was that calling himself a Christian was disingenuous. He would be more accurately referred to as a Paulian.
I'm not sure what my EXACT question is, other than why are the teachings of Paul given such incredible reverence (when they are mostly a bundle of letters sent to random churches) over the actual, active teachings of Jesus?
I was trying to point out the flaw in his opposition to gay marriage, but saw nothing wrong with getting a divorce. My point was that Jesus said nothing on homosexuality, but had VERY strong teachings on divorce. Namely, if you get a divorce, then you and your former spouse basically live in a perpetual state of adultery.
My point was, the covenant with Jesus allows Christians to learn from the Old Testament but are not bound by it. Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality.
That was actually Paul.
My point was that he was lifting the teachings of Paul and his anti-gay statements above the teachings of Jesus and his anti-divorce statements because of simple convenience - because he wasn't gay, he didn't have a problem with anti-gay teachings. Because he DID get a divorce, clearly the anti-divorce teachings were either out of context, or could be rationalized.
My point was that calling himself a Christian was disingenuous. He would be more accurately referred to as a Paulian.
I'm not sure what my EXACT question is, other than why are the teachings of Paul given such incredible reverence (when they are mostly a bundle of letters sent to random churches) over the actual, active teachings of Jesus?
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Posted on 6/24/16 at 9:22 am to skrayper
Posted on 6/24/16 at 9:22 am to skrayper
Posted on 6/24/16 at 9:22 am to skrayper
Posted on 6/24/16 at 9:38 am to skrayper
the vast majority of born-again believers believe the whole NT is the word of God. Conservative believers take it a step further and believe Paul's writings to be "inspired" by God... that what he wrote is what God wanted written - 100% truth.
Some of the things written in the NT are cultural - some transcend culture. It is important to determine the difference. There are nuances to language that have to be understood when translating from Greek to English. Additionally, some books are historical (like Acts) and the events in them aren't meant to be taken for today (for instance, in the Book of Acts, the early church first believed that salvation was only for Jewish believers in Christ. Later it was evident (ch. 10) that God clearly wanted to and was saving Gentiles who received Christ. The leaders of the church said, "Well, ok, they are Christians, but they still have to follow some Jewish rules to continue as Christians. God was patient and continued to teach these early believers that a person is only saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, James (the half-brother of Jesus) said, "tell those Gentile believers that they can't eat any meat that is strangled." It's there. It's in the Bible. But that doesn't mean that that practice is to be continued today because Acts progressively reveals that God patiently led them to drop those restrictions.
There are several separate issues in your text.
Jesus never called 'divorce' a perpetual state of adultery. It is remarriage after divorce that is adultery (except in the case of one of the partners committing adultery or in the even of abandonment). In those two cases, a believer is free to remarry without it being adultery.
Paul's statements about the gay and lesbian lifestyle are 100% true - and to be followed. Sexual sin of any kind, whether homo or no-homo - is sin.
Here is something to think about: divorce and homosexuality are outside of God's plan. Both are forgivable.
Some of the things written in the NT are cultural - some transcend culture. It is important to determine the difference. There are nuances to language that have to be understood when translating from Greek to English. Additionally, some books are historical (like Acts) and the events in them aren't meant to be taken for today (for instance, in the Book of Acts, the early church first believed that salvation was only for Jewish believers in Christ. Later it was evident (ch. 10) that God clearly wanted to and was saving Gentiles who received Christ. The leaders of the church said, "Well, ok, they are Christians, but they still have to follow some Jewish rules to continue as Christians. God was patient and continued to teach these early believers that a person is only saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, James (the half-brother of Jesus) said, "tell those Gentile believers that they can't eat any meat that is strangled." It's there. It's in the Bible. But that doesn't mean that that practice is to be continued today because Acts progressively reveals that God patiently led them to drop those restrictions.
There are several separate issues in your text.
Jesus never called 'divorce' a perpetual state of adultery. It is remarriage after divorce that is adultery (except in the case of one of the partners committing adultery or in the even of abandonment). In those two cases, a believer is free to remarry without it being adultery.
Paul's statements about the gay and lesbian lifestyle are 100% true - and to be followed. Sexual sin of any kind, whether homo or no-homo - is sin.
Here is something to think about: divorce and homosexuality are outside of God's plan. Both are forgivable.
Posted on 6/24/16 at 9:39 am to skrayper
Short answer: Out of context scripture citations can be used to say any number of things that may be completely counter to the writer's intent.
To my vegetarian sister-in-law with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies: Romans 14:2
To the whorns: Psalm 75:10
Read these by themselves, then read the entire chapter they are in.
To your specific question: I don't know.
To my vegetarian sister-in-law with a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies: Romans 14:2
To the whorns: Psalm 75:10
Read these by themselves, then read the entire chapter they are in.
To your specific question: I don't know.
Posted on 6/24/16 at 10:17 am to skrayper
Yes, he is inconsistent. As you stated Jesus is clear in Matthew 19:9 "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Few people note that Matthew 19:11-12 applies to divorced people and homosexuals: Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Few people note that Matthew 19:11-12 applies to divorced people and homosexuals: Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Posted on 6/24/16 at 10:19 am to skrayper
quote:
My point was that Jesus said nothing on homosexuality, but had VERY strong teachings on divorce.
Jesus is quoted at one point that God created people “in the beginning” as male and female, and that marriage is the union of one man and one woman joined together as “one flesh.” (Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9) Nothing is said about any other type of union but by saying "1 man & 1 woman being joined as 1" tells you nothing else was acceptable.
Posted on 6/24/16 at 10:25 am to skrayper
quote:
I'm not sure what my EXACT question is, other than why are the teachings of Paul given such incredible reverence (when they are mostly a bundle of letters sent to random churches) over the actual, active teachings of Jesus?
They're not. Paul was convicted after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus (where by the way he was going to imprison more Jews) (read Acts).
quote:
“Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!” he (Paul) said (1 Corinthians 9:16)
Paul was a disciple just like Peter, James, etc.
Posted on 6/24/16 at 10:26 am to skrayper
A Bible thread and no stacked yet?
Hmmmmm...
Hmmmmm...
Posted on 6/24/16 at 10:29 am to Pinche Cabron
quote:
Some of the things written in the NT are cultural - some transcend culture. It is important to determine the difference.
When i want to follow them they transcend cultural, when i dont it must have been God just writing a cultural thing in a book meant for the whole world. Gotcha makes perfect sense.
Posted on 6/24/16 at 11:00 am to skrayper
Sin is sin. We are imperfect beings trying to live justly. We make mistakes but it is our duty to learn from that and strive to not make the same mistakes again.
Posted on 6/24/16 at 12:00 pm to skrayper
quote:
Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality.
Because Jesus dealt with all sin on your behalf. It's over. There is no reason to be so sin-conscious. It's like finally paying off your home mortgage but continuing to make the payments and fret about whether you have enough to cover it. It's paid for!
This does not mean Jesus is an advocate for homosexuality. Just as he's not an advocate for heterosexual infidelity. But when sinning or not sinning becomes the main issue, that is not what Christianity is all about. That is simply behavior modification.
Those who are truly saved and who have accepted God's gift of grace have the Holy Spirit inside of them. If we just focus on Jesus and his love for us, all those "sins" that at one time seemed like such a big deal fall away and aren't so much of a struggle.
I know plenty of people who spent countless stints in rehab due to drug addiction, but no matter how hard they tried, they always relapsed. But many of these people have awakened and realized the goodness of God. They've accepted his grace and started focusing simply on that and how much Jesus loves them. The drug addiction has disappeared mainly because they've realized the guilt, shame, and condemnation they carried with them was paid for by Jesus on the cross. They can only love themselves when they realize that Jesus loves them NO MATTER WHAT. Then the addiction goes away.
Posted on 6/24/16 at 12:11 pm to BHMKyle
My recommendation would be not to get into these silly discussions or arguments. If someone wants to be a homosexual, let those matters be between them and God.
It is our job as believers to simply tell them the "Good News." And no, the "Good News" is not a lecture on how someone should think or live.
If someone truly loves God and truly understands how much God loves them, I don't think they would have the desire to live a life in sin.... whatever that sin is. But let them come to that realization. That's the only way it can truly happen.
Have I ever had impure thoughts about another woman? Of course! Probably fairly often. Not purposefully, but this is the fallen world we live in. No fleshly person is perfect, nor will they ever be. But to think of risking the loss of my marriage and healthy relationship with my wife and kids over having an affair with another woman makes me sick to my stomach to even imagine. And it also makes me feel uneasy because I know that it would affect my relationship with God.... not because he would treat me differently, but with sin, the enemy then sends guilt and shame, which would then cause me to not feel so free in my walk with Him.
Remember: In the garden when Adam and Eve chose to sin, it was THEY who suddenly noticed the fact they were naked (shame). God was still walking towards them. It was not God that changed his demeanor towards Adam and Eve. It was shame from the enemy that caused Adam and Eve to change their demeanor towards God. The more conscious we are of our sin, the more it affects our relationship with God. Regardless, He never turns his back on us! And he is always seeking us!
This is the case with homosexuals or any person who is not living a healthy lifestyle. If they truly love God, they will in time (its not something that often happens instantly) they will find themselves naturally making healthier choices. Let those people deal with God over these issues, its not our duty to convince them how to live. Even if we won a "convincing argument" that deterred them (highly doubtful), all we'd be doing is convincing them to modify their behavior..... whats the good in that if they aren't pointed to Christ!
It is our job as believers to simply tell them the "Good News." And no, the "Good News" is not a lecture on how someone should think or live.
If someone truly loves God and truly understands how much God loves them, I don't think they would have the desire to live a life in sin.... whatever that sin is. But let them come to that realization. That's the only way it can truly happen.
Have I ever had impure thoughts about another woman? Of course! Probably fairly often. Not purposefully, but this is the fallen world we live in. No fleshly person is perfect, nor will they ever be. But to think of risking the loss of my marriage and healthy relationship with my wife and kids over having an affair with another woman makes me sick to my stomach to even imagine. And it also makes me feel uneasy because I know that it would affect my relationship with God.... not because he would treat me differently, but with sin, the enemy then sends guilt and shame, which would then cause me to not feel so free in my walk with Him.
Remember: In the garden when Adam and Eve chose to sin, it was THEY who suddenly noticed the fact they were naked (shame). God was still walking towards them. It was not God that changed his demeanor towards Adam and Eve. It was shame from the enemy that caused Adam and Eve to change their demeanor towards God. The more conscious we are of our sin, the more it affects our relationship with God. Regardless, He never turns his back on us! And he is always seeking us!
This is the case with homosexuals or any person who is not living a healthy lifestyle. If they truly love God, they will in time (its not something that often happens instantly) they will find themselves naturally making healthier choices. Let those people deal with God over these issues, its not our duty to convince them how to live. Even if we won a "convincing argument" that deterred them (highly doubtful), all we'd be doing is convincing them to modify their behavior..... whats the good in that if they aren't pointed to Christ!
This post was edited on 6/24/16 at 12:17 pm
Posted on 6/24/16 at 12:37 pm to skrayper
quote:
Namely, if you get a divorce, then you and your former spouse basically live in a perpetual state of adultery.
I was under the impression that in the case of adultery, divorce was okay for the person who was the "injured party" and they were permitted to remarry?
I could be absolutely and totally wrong, though. I am anything but a scholar in that area.
ETA: Nevermind that..just saw Pinche Cabron answered that question and I was, surprisingly, correct.
This post was edited on 6/24/16 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 6/24/16 at 12:46 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
BHMKyle
I was going to post my thoughts, but BHMKyle said everything I wanted to say already
Posted on 6/24/16 at 12:52 pm to skrayper
If you can't handle me at my Old Testament
You don't deserve me at my New Testament
You don't deserve me at my New Testament
Posted on 6/24/16 at 1:06 pm to skrayper
Chicago style pizza >>>> New York style pizza
Posted on 6/24/16 at 1:09 pm to BHMKyle
quote:
This is the case with homosexuals or any person who is not living a healthy lifestyle. If they truly love God, they will in time (its not something that often happens instantly) they will find themselves naturally making healthier choices
it surprises me people actually believe you can pray away the gay.
That said the bulk of your post was pretty thoughtful.
This post was edited on 6/24/16 at 1:37 pm
Posted on 6/24/16 at 1:27 pm to skrayper
quote:
Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality.
He probably didn't think he had to.
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