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Richt vs Kirby after 3 years
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:27 am
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:27 am
Seth Emerson has a nicr article on The Athletic about this topic. The comparisons are pretty incredible.
Richt
2001 : 8-4
2002 : 13-1, SEC Champ, Sugar Bowl Champ (would have been in CFP if it existed)
2003 : 11-3, SEC East Champ
Overall : 32-8
2002 Recruiting : #3
2003 Recruiting : #6
2004 Recruiting : #6
Average : #5.0
Smart
2016 : 8-5
2017 : 13-2, SEC Champ, Rose Bowl Champ, Natl Title Game
2018 : 11-3, SEC East Champ
Overall : 32-10
2017 Recruiting : #5
2018 Recruiting : #1
2019 Recruiting : #2
Average : #2.7
Also - kind of like with Les Miles, I think people forget how good Richt's teams were in the first half of his time at UGA because of the inconsistency of the teams he had over the second half of his time there.
Georgia folks - if you can remember back to post-2004, how do you feel this point in the UGA program compares to that point? Similar? Different? The biggest difference I see is Richt was recruiting well, but Kirby is recruiting at a different level.
Richt
2001 : 8-4
2002 : 13-1, SEC Champ, Sugar Bowl Champ (would have been in CFP if it existed)
2003 : 11-3, SEC East Champ
Overall : 32-8
2002 Recruiting : #3
2003 Recruiting : #6
2004 Recruiting : #6
Average : #5.0
Smart
2016 : 8-5
2017 : 13-2, SEC Champ, Rose Bowl Champ, Natl Title Game
2018 : 11-3, SEC East Champ
Overall : 32-10
2017 Recruiting : #5
2018 Recruiting : #1
2019 Recruiting : #2
Average : #2.7
Also - kind of like with Les Miles, I think people forget how good Richt's teams were in the first half of his time at UGA because of the inconsistency of the teams he had over the second half of his time there.
Georgia folks - if you can remember back to post-2004, how do you feel this point in the UGA program compares to that point? Similar? Different? The biggest difference I see is Richt was recruiting well, but Kirby is recruiting at a different level.
This post was edited on 5/6/19 at 8:30 am
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Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:29 am to SummerOfGeorge
What did the SECE look like Richt's first three seasons ?
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:32 am to SummerOfGeorge
Those early Richt teams were intimidating, well coached teams. Kirby doesn't seem to have that same swag, IMO.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:39 am to SummerOfGeorge
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:39 am to SummerOfGeorge
Honestly I don’t see much difference in being 3rd and 5th in the recruiting ratings. What, that means a one or two of your players had one more star?
If you went back after 5 years and ranked them, it would draw a much clearer picture.
How many of those players get injured, transfer, flunk out of school, don’t make it because they were overrated or get just get beat out by another player on the roster?
That is why recruiting ratings are basically a joke. Understanding that they make for great conversation and each program needs to sign quality players but you don’t really know about a class until after they have exhausted their eligibility.
If you went back after 5 years and ranked them, it would draw a much clearer picture.
How many of those players get injured, transfer, flunk out of school, don’t make it because they were overrated or get just get beat out by another player on the roster?
That is why recruiting ratings are basically a joke. Understanding that they make for great conversation and each program needs to sign quality players but you don’t really know about a class until after they have exhausted their eligibility.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:40 am to SummerOfGeorge
I've always felt like these Richt v Smart comparisons were illogical, especially for those trying to make the case that Smart is no better than Richt, and therefore UGA is no better off having fired him. The whole point in firing 2010's Richt was to try to return the program back to 2000's Richt UGA. Smart has done that.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:41 am to SummerOfGeorge
George you are supposed to include the Scooby Doo mask reveal with this. Come on man, get with it.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:43 am to SummerOfGeorge
Kirby = Richt 2.0
UG fans should be happy.
UG fans should be happy.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:46 am to SummerOfGeorge
They are very similar through the first three years. It’s the last 5 in the Richt era that were frustrating. Richt teams always lost a game that they shouldn’t have lost. It’s too early to tell how the Smart era will progress. right now, I would say that 99% of Georgia fans are happy with our coach.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:48 am to SummerOfGeorge
Rivals love to bring this up as if it's some sort of dig on kirby, while forgetting that early era richt was maybe the hottest up and coming coach in america at the time. Some rambling thoughts:
-I think overall we are set up to be better now and going foward than we were at the same stage of richt's tenure, but our competition is much more difficult
-You mentioned it but it bares repeating, if the playoff existed then I put it at 50/50 odds we are national champs in 02. OSU was garbage that year and I'd put us up against anyone the way we played from mid-November on.
-The recruiting can't be understated. We have never recruited this well in our history, and one of the biggest components of that is along the LOS especially OL. Richt never had an OL in his history that was half as deep as this year's.
-Those first 3 years of richt, he played a nationally elite UF/UT in 01, nobody really that great in 02 (bama and AU were very good but not nationally great), and the national champs in LSU in 03. Kirby didn't really play anyone nationally good in 16 (AU was very good but not great), played 3 nationally elite teams in 17, and more great teams last year. His overall quality of competition is much harder IMO and will always be as long as saban is still in the way.
Richt's first giant mistake was replacing van gorder with martinez in 05. Richt played the mellow leader while Van gorder and jon fabris were the fire and brimstone guys, it was a good balacne. When we lost VG and replaced him with willie who was not the hardass VG was, the discipline started to erode. Regardless of future staff changes I don't see that same thign playing out wiht a kirby-led team.
I also think with the way we're recruiting we're bound to win one at some point. You don't recruit as well as we have and not get one at some point. Texas, USC, bama, UF, etc going back the last few decades...all of them had good to great teams that fell short but just kept stockpiling elite 5* talent until that one year that it eventually all came together. I don't see why that won't be us soon.
-I think overall we are set up to be better now and going foward than we were at the same stage of richt's tenure, but our competition is much more difficult
-You mentioned it but it bares repeating, if the playoff existed then I put it at 50/50 odds we are national champs in 02. OSU was garbage that year and I'd put us up against anyone the way we played from mid-November on.
-The recruiting can't be understated. We have never recruited this well in our history, and one of the biggest components of that is along the LOS especially OL. Richt never had an OL in his history that was half as deep as this year's.
-Those first 3 years of richt, he played a nationally elite UF/UT in 01, nobody really that great in 02 (bama and AU were very good but not nationally great), and the national champs in LSU in 03. Kirby didn't really play anyone nationally good in 16 (AU was very good but not great), played 3 nationally elite teams in 17, and more great teams last year. His overall quality of competition is much harder IMO and will always be as long as saban is still in the way.
Richt's first giant mistake was replacing van gorder with martinez in 05. Richt played the mellow leader while Van gorder and jon fabris were the fire and brimstone guys, it was a good balacne. When we lost VG and replaced him with willie who was not the hardass VG was, the discipline started to erode. Regardless of future staff changes I don't see that same thign playing out wiht a kirby-led team.
I also think with the way we're recruiting we're bound to win one at some point. You don't recruit as well as we have and not get one at some point. Texas, USC, bama, UF, etc going back the last few decades...all of them had good to great teams that fell short but just kept stockpiling elite 5* talent until that one year that it eventually all came together. I don't see why that won't be us soon.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 8:48 am to SummerOfGeorge
Kiry's teams dominate the opponent more than Richt's. Very few close games. Stills craps the bed inexplicably like Richt in a game or two though
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:11 am to SummerOfGeorge
It's always funny to me that people claim Kirby was helped by a soft schedule in '17, while Richt wasn't in '02. Richt played 6 ranked teams in '02, the highest rated being #10 UT. Kirby also played 6 ranked teams with 4 of the 6 being top 10 and 3 of those 4 being top 5. Richt was a good coach his first 3 years at UGA. Unfortunately he fell off, which is why he no longer has a job.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:37 am to SummerOfGeorge
Richt Year 3: get destroyed by LSU
Smart Year 3: get destroyed by LSU
Smart Year 3: get destroyed by LSU
Posted on 5/6/19 at 10:48 am to SummerOfGeorge
How big is the gap between the #5 recruiting class and the #2 or #3 class? Not much if any.
There isn't one iota of difference between Richt and Kirby at this point. They are the same person.
There isn't one iota of difference between Richt and Kirby at this point. They are the same person.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:23 am to SummerOfGeorge
I love this discussion for two reasons:
1. People forget how much talent Jim Donnan left Richt. Those 2001 and 2002 teams were loaded with upper-classmen on the OL, including future NFL’ers at both tackle positions, Center, and at least one guard spot. Richt had NFL talent at TB, TE, and WR. First round talent at LB, on the DL, and in the secondary. If anything, Richt’s management of recruiting early on, with the success of 2002 team should have been a warning sign. The changeover to nearly an all freshman offensive line in 2003 pretty much kept UGA from winning the SEC and maybe more.
2. Had Richt maintained 2002-2005 level success for 15 years he’d either still be coaching or be UGA’s most successful coach ever. Dude simply could not manage a roster and he benefitted heavily from talent stockpiled by his predecessor. If anything, Kirby is going the exact opposite in that he is rebuilding depth from Richt’s last years. He caught a flash in the pan in 2017 with Michel, Chubb, Wimms, and a few Key other guys. Everybody got impatient then - but Kirby is still young, young, young in his coaching career.
1. People forget how much talent Jim Donnan left Richt. Those 2001 and 2002 teams were loaded with upper-classmen on the OL, including future NFL’ers at both tackle positions, Center, and at least one guard spot. Richt had NFL talent at TB, TE, and WR. First round talent at LB, on the DL, and in the secondary. If anything, Richt’s management of recruiting early on, with the success of 2002 team should have been a warning sign. The changeover to nearly an all freshman offensive line in 2003 pretty much kept UGA from winning the SEC and maybe more.
2. Had Richt maintained 2002-2005 level success for 15 years he’d either still be coaching or be UGA’s most successful coach ever. Dude simply could not manage a roster and he benefitted heavily from talent stockpiled by his predecessor. If anything, Kirby is going the exact opposite in that he is rebuilding depth from Richt’s last years. He caught a flash in the pan in 2017 with Michel, Chubb, Wimms, and a few Key other guys. Everybody got impatient then - but Kirby is still young, young, young in his coaching career.
This post was edited on 5/6/19 at 11:24 am
Posted on 5/6/19 at 11:51 am to SummerOfGeorge
SummerOfGeorge. I may be looking at different recruiting rankings than you did for your numbers. I have listed the 247 composite ranking for the classes, where they were in comparison nationally, the conference, and the East. Kirby is recruiting at a completely different level than Richt did his first few years (as stated). This holds true for where we sit in the recruiting rankings compared to the SEC East and compared to the conference as a whole.
The SEC is a Jimmy and Joes and line of scrimmage league. Richt inherited SEC offensive and defensive lines from Donnan, Kirby didn’t and has re-built our lines from scratch. Richt followed the Bowden blueprint and always thought of the offensive line as a plug and play system. Our o-line variance in performance over his tenure shows that. Sam Pittman's O-line is completely different philosophically and recruiting wise than Richt ever had for his o-line. The conference was evenly distributed with talent when Richt took over. Today Bama is sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and has the national championships to show for it.
I do agree with Seth on the difference in Administrative support. There is a night and day difference today compared to what Richt saw at any point in his tenure. Another point in his article is VanGorder was considered the hammer to Mark Richt's nice guy tactics. When VanGorder left we replaced him with a overmatched coordinator in Willie Martinez. I don't think that is going to be a issue under Kirby because he is the hammer. If anything he may have to hire the nice guy coordinators to offset his style.
I was very excited back in the early Richt years for the potential at UGA. Looking in the rear view mirror it's plain to see Richt's failings as the UGA coach. He did not value the trenches like Kirby does, he struggled at closing out recruiting classes, and the roster management was beyond sub-par. Looking at Kirby's teams none of these concerns are there anymore and I think as a program we are in a completely different spot entering year four than we were under Richt. The crazy thing is I didn't realize it at the time with Richt but I do now seeing how Kirby has built this UGA team.
Recruiting ranking 247 composite
Richt
2001 (LSU, UT, AU, Ark, UGA) 10th Nationally, 5th in SEC, 2nd in East
2002 (UT, UGA, UF) 9th Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 2nd in East
2003 (UF, LSU, UGA, UT) 9th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
2004 (LSU, UF, UGA, UT) 7th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
Smart
2016 (Bama, LSU, OM, UGA, AU, UF, UT) 7th Nationally, 4th in SEC, 1st in East
2017 (Bama, UGA, LSU, AU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
2018 (UGA, Bama, AU, UF, LSU) 1st Nationally, 1st in SEC, 1st in East
2019 (Bama, UGA, TAMU, LSU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
The SEC is a Jimmy and Joes and line of scrimmage league. Richt inherited SEC offensive and defensive lines from Donnan, Kirby didn’t and has re-built our lines from scratch. Richt followed the Bowden blueprint and always thought of the offensive line as a plug and play system. Our o-line variance in performance over his tenure shows that. Sam Pittman's O-line is completely different philosophically and recruiting wise than Richt ever had for his o-line. The conference was evenly distributed with talent when Richt took over. Today Bama is sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and has the national championships to show for it.
I do agree with Seth on the difference in Administrative support. There is a night and day difference today compared to what Richt saw at any point in his tenure. Another point in his article is VanGorder was considered the hammer to Mark Richt's nice guy tactics. When VanGorder left we replaced him with a overmatched coordinator in Willie Martinez. I don't think that is going to be a issue under Kirby because he is the hammer. If anything he may have to hire the nice guy coordinators to offset his style.
I was very excited back in the early Richt years for the potential at UGA. Looking in the rear view mirror it's plain to see Richt's failings as the UGA coach. He did not value the trenches like Kirby does, he struggled at closing out recruiting classes, and the roster management was beyond sub-par. Looking at Kirby's teams none of these concerns are there anymore and I think as a program we are in a completely different spot entering year four than we were under Richt. The crazy thing is I didn't realize it at the time with Richt but I do now seeing how Kirby has built this UGA team.
Recruiting ranking 247 composite
Richt
2001 (LSU, UT, AU, Ark, UGA) 10th Nationally, 5th in SEC, 2nd in East
2002 (UT, UGA, UF) 9th Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 2nd in East
2003 (UF, LSU, UGA, UT) 9th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
2004 (LSU, UF, UGA, UT) 7th Nationally, 3rd in SEC, 2nd in East
Smart
2016 (Bama, LSU, OM, UGA, AU, UF, UT) 7th Nationally, 4th in SEC, 1st in East
2017 (Bama, UGA, LSU, AU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
2018 (UGA, Bama, AU, UF, LSU) 1st Nationally, 1st in SEC, 1st in East
2019 (Bama, UGA, TAMU, LSU, UF) 3rd Nationally, 2nd in SEC, 1st in East
This post was edited on 5/6/19 at 12:10 pm
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:07 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Out of curiosity, where are the Richt recruiting rankings coming from? I'm guessing maybe just one of Rivals or ESPN?
247 Composite shows those classes as:
2002 - 9th
2003 - 9th
2004 - 7th
Perhaps more importantly, here was the average rating of signed recruits by year:
2002: 86.58
2003: 86.41
2004: 89.81
Compared to
2017: 92.27
2018: 94.23
2019: 93.32
So in otherwords... Richt's *average* recruit was a low 4* to high 3* athlete - typically somewhere around 350 nationally. Smart's *average* recruit is a high 4* - typically somewhere around 150-200 nationally. That's not an insignificant differential.
FWIW though, Recruiting rankings in early 2000s also were not what they are now. Kids didn't get the same level of scrutiny... It was a lot easier to find 2* Thomas Davis and 3* David Pollack then than it is now.
As many have stated, if we had 15 years of year 1-3 Mark Richt, we'd have much different conversations about the last decade or so of UGA football. Smart, much like Richt will be defined by what he does over the long haul, not solely what he did in years 1-3.
247 Composite shows those classes as:
2002 - 9th
2003 - 9th
2004 - 7th
Perhaps more importantly, here was the average rating of signed recruits by year:
2002: 86.58
2003: 86.41
2004: 89.81
Compared to
2017: 92.27
2018: 94.23
2019: 93.32
So in otherwords... Richt's *average* recruit was a low 4* to high 3* athlete - typically somewhere around 350 nationally. Smart's *average* recruit is a high 4* - typically somewhere around 150-200 nationally. That's not an insignificant differential.
FWIW though, Recruiting rankings in early 2000s also were not what they are now. Kids didn't get the same level of scrutiny... It was a lot easier to find 2* Thomas Davis and 3* David Pollack then than it is now.
As many have stated, if we had 15 years of year 1-3 Mark Richt, we'd have much different conversations about the last decade or so of UGA football. Smart, much like Richt will be defined by what he does over the long haul, not solely what he did in years 1-3.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 12:32 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Richt took over from Jim Donnan (who went 8-4 his last two seasons) and Kirby took over from Richt (who went 10-3 and 9-3). I'm guessing Kirby stepped into a much better situation especially when you factor in that UT and UF were a mess when he got hired. Kirby has them on the cusp of a title so that is very big difference. Given Richt's inability to recharge the U and Kirby's success, UGA made the right decision.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 1:17 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
Georgia folks - if you can remember back to post-2004, how do you feel this point in the UGA program compares to that point? Similar? Different? The biggest difference I see is Richt was recruiting well, but Kirby is recruiting at a different level.
At the same point? Definitely similar. To deny it is dumb, imo. We are banking on Kirby building on this success. I loved Richt, and I think most, if not all Georgia fans did after the first 5 years or so.
I do think Kirby will continue to build, though. Only time will tell.
Posted on 5/6/19 at 3:30 pm to SummerOfGeorge
This is interesting but Richt really started to even out and fall off a bit after that sample size you provided...I'm not so sure Kirby will fall off like Richy did but we'll see.
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