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Is the death of the Pocket Passer coming in CFB?
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:14 pm
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:14 pm
Done a lot of research in determining the fall of the pocket passing qb in college football have a read.
The 4 teams in the college playoffs all started qb's who where ranked Dual Threat's coming out of high school, if Baylor and Tcu made it, they still would have started qb's who where rated Dual threats out of high school.
There are 5 Power conferences in the nation and in 2014 they where all won by Dual Threat Qb's
Blake Sims - Dual Threat out of high school. (SEC)
Jameis Winston - Dual Threat out of high school. (ACC)
Cardale Jones/ but JT Barett won them that conference. (BIG 10)
Bryce Petty - Dual Threat out of high school (LINK ) (BIG 12)
Marcus Mariota - Dual Threat out of high school (PAC 12)
Same thing last year except I believe Connor Cook won the BIG 10 and he is a Pro Style qb.
To further this stance I went back some years to see how the top teams in the nation did and what qb's they had.
Look at the top teams of 2014 and their qbs
2014
Ohio State - Dual Threat
Oregon - Dual Threat
TCU-DT
Alabama-DT
Michigan State-PP
Florida State-DT
Baylor - Neither
Georgia Tech -DT
Georgia- PP
Ucla-DT
2013
Florida State - DT
Auburn - DT
Michigan State - PP
South Carolina - DT
Missouri - DT
Oklahoma-DT
Clemson-DT
Alabama-PP
ORegon-DT
Ohio State-DT
2012
Alabama-PP
Oregon-DT
Notre Dame-DT
Georgia-PP
Stanford-PP
Texas a&m-DT
South Carolina-DT
Florida State-DT
Clemson-DT
Florida-DT
Kansas State-DT
LSU-PP
Louisville-DT
Boise State-DT
Oklahoma-PP
Northwestern-PP
Utah State-DT
Texas-Dt
Oregon State-PP
Vanderbilt-PP
Cincinati-DT
Nebraska-DT
Northern Ilinois-DT
Tulsa - DT
Furthermore I went back to see the evaluation of top 5 pocket passers and top 5 Dual threat qb's.
2013 Browne, Hackenberg, Shane Morris, Cooper Bateman, Kevin Olsen. Browne better have something during his junior year or else town and that other dude could start their sophomore years, Hackenberg the jury is still out after his abmyssal sophomore year, Morris was picked after a freshman qb, Bateman has been converted to WR! (how) and Olsen lost the job to Kaaya.
2012 = Keil, Kline, Magnum, Brewer, Voytik. I know Keil but the rest nope, I know the ship might have sailed with Kline because Geoff is starting and is a year younger.
That's a 1 out of 5 hit.
In the case of DT's
2012 = Winston, Cyer Miles, Chad Kelly, Mauk, Tonny Armstrong. Winston is expected to be the number 1 pick, cyer miles is starting next year, Chad Kelly should start next year, Mauk is alright and this should be armstrong's 3rd year starting.
2013 = Marshall, Woulard, JT Barett, Bailey, Zaire. Marshall converted to WR he was never a qb to start with, for Woulard is UCLA doesn't start rosen as a freshman he could have a shot, for we all know JT, Bailey didn't pan out, and Zaire could start next year.
2014 = Watson, Herrard, Hansen, Harris, Mahalak. Watson is going to set tons of record when its all said and done, Heard should beat out Swoopes, Hansen might have to wait a little, Harris could beat out Jennings for the starting job he played sparringly last year, I don't know or think Mahalak is ever going to start for oregon.
I would take the DT over the PP, you are looking at a 3/5 or higher hit rate for them. Plus for the past 4 years an average of 16 of the top 20 teams in the nation have used DTs, and since bama last won the NC all the other qb's have been DT. If you want your guy to be the number 1 pick recruit a pp.
By the way Golson, Hundley, Bridgewater, and Braxton miller where top 5 DT's in 2011, while Lemay, Brissett, Wittek, Kessler and David where top 5 PPs.
The 2011 Dual threat qb class hit on all 4 qb's as they should all be playing in the NFL at some time, Brissett should make it and you could argue that he is also a DT, while Kessler should go in the first round.
History tells us that either Eason or Shea could be bust in college.
I think its easier to play as a Dual threat in college over being in the pocket anyway.
The 4 teams in the college playoffs all started qb's who where ranked Dual Threat's coming out of high school, if Baylor and Tcu made it, they still would have started qb's who where rated Dual threats out of high school.
There are 5 Power conferences in the nation and in 2014 they where all won by Dual Threat Qb's
Blake Sims - Dual Threat out of high school. (SEC)
Jameis Winston - Dual Threat out of high school. (ACC)
Cardale Jones/ but JT Barett won them that conference. (BIG 10)
Bryce Petty - Dual Threat out of high school (LINK ) (BIG 12)
Marcus Mariota - Dual Threat out of high school (PAC 12)
Same thing last year except I believe Connor Cook won the BIG 10 and he is a Pro Style qb.
To further this stance I went back some years to see how the top teams in the nation did and what qb's they had.
Look at the top teams of 2014 and their qbs
2014
Ohio State - Dual Threat
Oregon - Dual Threat
TCU-DT
Alabama-DT
Michigan State-PP
Florida State-DT
Baylor - Neither
Georgia Tech -DT
Georgia- PP
Ucla-DT
2013
Florida State - DT
Auburn - DT
Michigan State - PP
South Carolina - DT
Missouri - DT
Oklahoma-DT
Clemson-DT
Alabama-PP
ORegon-DT
Ohio State-DT
2012
Alabama-PP
Oregon-DT
Notre Dame-DT
Georgia-PP
Stanford-PP
Texas a&m-DT
South Carolina-DT
Florida State-DT
Clemson-DT
Florida-DT
Kansas State-DT
LSU-PP
Louisville-DT
Boise State-DT
Oklahoma-PP
Northwestern-PP
Utah State-DT
Texas-Dt
Oregon State-PP
Vanderbilt-PP
Cincinati-DT
Nebraska-DT
Northern Ilinois-DT
Tulsa - DT
Furthermore I went back to see the evaluation of top 5 pocket passers and top 5 Dual threat qb's.
2013 Browne, Hackenberg, Shane Morris, Cooper Bateman, Kevin Olsen. Browne better have something during his junior year or else town and that other dude could start their sophomore years, Hackenberg the jury is still out after his abmyssal sophomore year, Morris was picked after a freshman qb, Bateman has been converted to WR! (how) and Olsen lost the job to Kaaya.
2012 = Keil, Kline, Magnum, Brewer, Voytik. I know Keil but the rest nope, I know the ship might have sailed with Kline because Geoff is starting and is a year younger.
That's a 1 out of 5 hit.
In the case of DT's
2012 = Winston, Cyer Miles, Chad Kelly, Mauk, Tonny Armstrong. Winston is expected to be the number 1 pick, cyer miles is starting next year, Chad Kelly should start next year, Mauk is alright and this should be armstrong's 3rd year starting.
2013 = Marshall, Woulard, JT Barett, Bailey, Zaire. Marshall converted to WR he was never a qb to start with, for Woulard is UCLA doesn't start rosen as a freshman he could have a shot, for we all know JT, Bailey didn't pan out, and Zaire could start next year.
2014 = Watson, Herrard, Hansen, Harris, Mahalak. Watson is going to set tons of record when its all said and done, Heard should beat out Swoopes, Hansen might have to wait a little, Harris could beat out Jennings for the starting job he played sparringly last year, I don't know or think Mahalak is ever going to start for oregon.
I would take the DT over the PP, you are looking at a 3/5 or higher hit rate for them. Plus for the past 4 years an average of 16 of the top 20 teams in the nation have used DTs, and since bama last won the NC all the other qb's have been DT. If you want your guy to be the number 1 pick recruit a pp.
By the way Golson, Hundley, Bridgewater, and Braxton miller where top 5 DT's in 2011, while Lemay, Brissett, Wittek, Kessler and David where top 5 PPs.
The 2011 Dual threat qb class hit on all 4 qb's as they should all be playing in the NFL at some time, Brissett should make it and you could argue that he is also a DT, while Kessler should go in the first round.
History tells us that either Eason or Shea could be bust in college.
I think its easier to play as a Dual threat in college over being in the pocket anyway.
18
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:16 pm to agregime1
Jacob Eason transcends the rankings of mortals
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:16 pm to agregime1
No.
Dual threat is such a silly term.
quote:
The 4 teams in the college playoffs all started qb's who where ranked Dual Threat's coming out of high school
Dual threat is such a silly term.
This post was edited on 5/22/15 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:16 pm to agregime1
The death of the pocket passer is because less QBs are pocket passers in high school
A lot of high schools these days just make the best athlete on the team the QB so they can get the ball in his hands as much as possible
A lot of high schools these days just make the best athlete on the team the QB so they can get the ball in his hands as much as possible
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:33 pm to agregime1
quote:I didn't even read the rest of the post after this. He may have been labeled a "DT" coming out of high school, but he was clearly a "PP" at FSU.
Jameis Winston - Dual Threat out of high school.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:40 pm to agregime1
I think what is happening is that the there are fewer of the made of stone Manning type QBs out there. Don't confuse what OP is calling Dual Threat with Michael Vick. A lot of these DT's are able to step away from a rusher but it doesn't make them a "running quarterback." Winston and Petty can step away but definitely don't want a lot of running plays drawn up for them.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:42 pm to agregime1
Blake Sims made some plays with his legs, but his style all year was more of a Pocket Passer than that of duel threat QB's.
I think the term dual threat just gets thrown on QB's who have run skills. They were called scramblers back in the day.
I think the term dual threat just gets thrown on QB's who have run skills. They were called scramblers back in the day.
This post was edited on 5/22/15 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 5/22/15 at 1:44 pm to agregime1
quote:
Done a lot of research in determining the fall of the pocket passing qb in college football have a read.
I'm not going to read anything that has such a dumb intro as that.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 3:40 pm to agregime1
I'm not arguing that they may at one point have been classified that way, but Winston and Petty are not dual-threat QBs.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 3:43 pm to agregime1
Jake Coker /thread
Posted on 5/22/15 at 3:43 pm to agregime1
Not as long as pocket passers are dominating the NFL
Posted on 5/22/15 at 3:54 pm to agregime1
Some thoughts:
College and high school are better suited to DT than the NFL for a number of reasons
1. The mandatory limit of 4 year careers in both College and High school means the risk of performance loss due to injury is substantially less.
2. The players are always in the ideal age range for the physical demands of dual threat.
3. There are tons of starting jobs. High School used to be dominated by pocket passers because they coach picked his son at QB and then did everything he could to ensure success. This meant the high school QBs good enough to start in college had excellent schematic training. Coaches now go for the win first, which means putting the best athlete at the most important position. This didn't happen because high school coaches stopped giving a crap about their sons, it's because the sport has become more important. Schools aren't just handing a clipboard to the dad who has son and wants to coach.
For these reasons, College has and will see a decline in pocket passers. But it won’t see the ‘death’ of the pocket passer for the same reasons, indirectly. Directly, the reason is because the NFL is the final goal for the best players, and the NFL is better suited to the pocket passer.
1. The NFL wants a guy who can be a great QB for 10-15 years. A serious injury not only forces them to punt on that season, but possibly be stuck with a diminished player until they can replace him, which is incredibly difficult.
2. 10-15 years in the NFL means your QB is old by the end. Way past the ideal of running around and getting crunched by the lunatic brotherhood (or LB for short.)
3. There are very few starting jobs. The NFL doesn’t have to care if college wants to produce mostly dual threats.
As long as the NFL wants pocket passers, there will be some college programs that play pro-style offense, the distinction is a valuable recruiting tool.
PS Winston is totally a PP, he runs like big ben.
College and high school are better suited to DT than the NFL for a number of reasons
1. The mandatory limit of 4 year careers in both College and High school means the risk of performance loss due to injury is substantially less.
2. The players are always in the ideal age range for the physical demands of dual threat.
3. There are tons of starting jobs. High School used to be dominated by pocket passers because they coach picked his son at QB and then did everything he could to ensure success. This meant the high school QBs good enough to start in college had excellent schematic training. Coaches now go for the win first, which means putting the best athlete at the most important position. This didn't happen because high school coaches stopped giving a crap about their sons, it's because the sport has become more important. Schools aren't just handing a clipboard to the dad who has son and wants to coach.
For these reasons, College has and will see a decline in pocket passers. But it won’t see the ‘death’ of the pocket passer for the same reasons, indirectly. Directly, the reason is because the NFL is the final goal for the best players, and the NFL is better suited to the pocket passer.
1. The NFL wants a guy who can be a great QB for 10-15 years. A serious injury not only forces them to punt on that season, but possibly be stuck with a diminished player until they can replace him, which is incredibly difficult.
2. 10-15 years in the NFL means your QB is old by the end. Way past the ideal of running around and getting crunched by the lunatic brotherhood (or LB for short.)
3. There are very few starting jobs. The NFL doesn’t have to care if college wants to produce mostly dual threats.
As long as the NFL wants pocket passers, there will be some college programs that play pro-style offense, the distinction is a valuable recruiting tool.
PS Winston is totally a PP, he runs like big ben.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 4:01 pm to agregime1
i've also noticed the decline of the Pocket Pussy
Posted on 5/22/15 at 6:10 pm to agregime1
Well if you want a national championship, a dual threat, or mobile pocket passer, is the way to go unless you are ridiculously loaded everywhere else like Bama was with McCarron and McElroy.
Dual threats are becoming much better passers now and it just makes them super deadly paired with their athleticism. IMO, if Mett could run, we'd have faced FSU in the championship game in 2013.
Dual threats are becoming much better passers now and it just makes them super deadly paired with their athleticism. IMO, if Mett could run, we'd have faced FSU in the championship game in 2013.
This post was edited on 5/22/15 at 6:12 pm
Posted on 5/22/15 at 7:03 pm to agregime1
PP aren't going anywhere. There maybe less of them but they will always be around. A more accurate PP can be just as good as any DT QB.
It's always a changing cycle. Teams are starting to build defenses to cover spread offenses with DT QBs. Offenses will eventually start getting more physical players and going back to the old style to run over the smaller faster players and PP are the ideal QBs for that type offense. Then it will cycle back again.
It's always a changing cycle. Teams are starting to build defenses to cover spread offenses with DT QBs. Offenses will eventually start getting more physical players and going back to the old style to run over the smaller faster players and PP are the ideal QBs for that type offense. Then it will cycle back again.
Posted on 5/22/15 at 7:31 pm to agregime1
LSU killed it years ago...
Posted on 5/23/15 at 10:37 am to agregime1
How is Jameis Winston a dual threat QB? He rushed for 65 yards last year and his mobility is mediocre at best. He's the very definition of a pocket passer.
Posted on 5/25/15 at 10:14 am to agregime1
Jameis Winston wasn't a Dual Threat QB.
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