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re: Spinoff: Which SEC program is best built for long-term success in football?
Posted on 6/11/13 at 3:55 pm to GeauxPack81
Posted on 6/11/13 at 3:55 pm to GeauxPack81
"per capita" argument is dumb. Louisiana could send 1% more per capita to the NFL than Texas, but if they have 1/4th the population, LSU's talent pool is still vastly smaller than Texas A&M's, and they will never recruit better in east Texas than A&M, so throwing that in to the argument makes no sense.
1
Posted on 6/11/13 at 3:57 pm to GeauxPack81
Tennessee
Posted on 6/11/13 at 4:13 pm to GeauxPack81
Counterpoint: Of the listed teams, which have actually sustained long-term success over the history of their programs? 
This post was edited on 6/11/13 at 4:15 pm
Posted on 6/11/13 at 7:28 pm to GeauxPack81
quote:
However, they ( Alabama ) have to be able to recruit Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, or Texas to have very high level success.
Been living under a rock the past 5 years?
Posted on 6/11/13 at 8:53 pm to GeauxPack81
quote:
but they will always have a bad stigma to African American football players especially with the presence of the rebel flag.
The Rebel flag is no more prevalent at Ole Miss than at other schools now.
Posted on 6/11/13 at 9:11 pm to GeauxPack81
1) Alabama - History speaks for itself, in a pretty good spot for recruiting, administration will do whatever it takes to win
2) Florida - Location. History not close to Bama, as well as some schools below them on this list
3) LSU - Top dog in a talent rich state with few nearby OOS schools with the wherewithal to poach. Have endured some bad stretches in the past
4) Georgia - Arguably in the best recruiting location of all the SEC schools. Top dog in a very talent rich state (4th after FL, CA, TX) while also being very strong in Florida and the Carolinas. Downside is that the state is susceptible to nearby big dog OOS competition. Good history. Administration is sometimes hesitant to really spend the money to win big.
5) Texas A&M - Only SEC school in Texas. Great location for recruiting, obviously. Must compete with Texas and OOS schools for players, but will get theirs as long as they are winning. I have doubts about the higher level HS talent in Texas after watching the softness of the recent UT teams.
6) Auburn - Until last year, they have been a pretty consistent winner. They have a good location and strong following.
7) Tennessee - Tradition counts for something. Great facilities and fan following.
8) South Carolina
The rest don't really compare
2) Florida - Location. History not close to Bama, as well as some schools below them on this list
3) LSU - Top dog in a talent rich state with few nearby OOS schools with the wherewithal to poach. Have endured some bad stretches in the past
4) Georgia - Arguably in the best recruiting location of all the SEC schools. Top dog in a very talent rich state (4th after FL, CA, TX) while also being very strong in Florida and the Carolinas. Downside is that the state is susceptible to nearby big dog OOS competition. Good history. Administration is sometimes hesitant to really spend the money to win big.
5) Texas A&M - Only SEC school in Texas. Great location for recruiting, obviously. Must compete with Texas and OOS schools for players, but will get theirs as long as they are winning. I have doubts about the higher level HS talent in Texas after watching the softness of the recent UT teams.
6) Auburn - Until last year, they have been a pretty consistent winner. They have a good location and strong following.
7) Tennessee - Tradition counts for something. Great facilities and fan following.
8) South Carolina
The rest don't really compare
Posted on 6/12/13 at 8:36 am to GeauxPack81
quote:
4)Alabama
I stopped reading...
Posted on 6/12/13 at 2:39 pm to GeauxPack81
quote:
1)LSU - No major in-state competition for recruits, more NFL players per capita than any other state, large following in east Texas, great stadium, huge fan base, decent tradition.
Another, "We are LSU, aren't we the best at everything post."
Posted on 6/12/13 at 9:05 pm to GeauxPack81
quote:
1)LSU - No major in-state competition for recruits, more NFL players per capita than any other state, large following in east Texas, great stadium, huge fan base, decent tradition.
2)Georgia - Great talent level in state, above average academics, great campus, great city, biggest program in its state, good tradition, can grab recruits from state of Florida.
3)Florida - Location, Location, Location. Currently the state of Florida is stacked every year, even if they get out recruited by FSU some years and if out of state teams can get players from the state, UF will still be left with more than enough good athletes. Also, big stadium, multiple NCs.
4)Alabama - Above average talent in the state of Alabama, and they will always be big brother (sorry auburn). Great campus, huge stadium, ridiculously passionate fan base, great tradition. However, they have to be able to recruit Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, or Texas to have very high level success.
Bama is number one as long as Saban is at the helm. That will never change.
Posted on 6/13/13 at 4:00 am to GeauxPack81
Just gonna do the top 7 because who cares about the bottom half?
1. Bama. With or without Saban, the only school that comes close to them in tradition is Michigan, and they're in the Big Ten.
2. UF. This is assuming Muschamp is not there. Too much talent in that state for them to slip, especially since they now have a tradition to build on unlike pre-1990.
3. LSU. Great stadium, solid tradition, great recruiting base.
4. UGA. UGA is a semi-national brand, and GA is one of the top states for high-level talent, although they need to improve a bit on keeping some of the best players in state.
5. USC. SC has a great amount of talent for its size, and pretty much every top level talent goes to USC or Clemson (with USC gaining an advantage every year), or a huge power such as Bama, with UGA cherrypicking the occasional top recruit.
6. A&M. Would put them higher, but I feel that if Texas ever fires Mack Brown and hires a competent recruiter, A&M's recruiting will fall off.
7. Arky/Ole Miss/UT. Arky can pull from East Texas and maybe keep the elite talent in Arkansas/Memphis back home. Mississippi has a solid talent base and Ole Miss will always be ahead of MSU. UT has the tradition and should be able to recruit NC and GA in addition to TN.
1. Bama. With or without Saban, the only school that comes close to them in tradition is Michigan, and they're in the Big Ten.
2. UF. This is assuming Muschamp is not there. Too much talent in that state for them to slip, especially since they now have a tradition to build on unlike pre-1990.
3. LSU. Great stadium, solid tradition, great recruiting base.
4. UGA. UGA is a semi-national brand, and GA is one of the top states for high-level talent, although they need to improve a bit on keeping some of the best players in state.
5. USC. SC has a great amount of talent for its size, and pretty much every top level talent goes to USC or Clemson (with USC gaining an advantage every year), or a huge power such as Bama, with UGA cherrypicking the occasional top recruit.
6. A&M. Would put them higher, but I feel that if Texas ever fires Mack Brown and hires a competent recruiter, A&M's recruiting will fall off.
7. Arky/Ole Miss/UT. Arky can pull from East Texas and maybe keep the elite talent in Arkansas/Memphis back home. Mississippi has a solid talent base and Ole Miss will always be ahead of MSU. UT has the tradition and should be able to recruit NC and GA in addition to TN.
Posted on 6/13/13 at 4:06 am to GeauxPack81
There are no great indicators of long term future success - there are just too many variables. However, the best indicator of any of them is past long term success. I'm sure anyone with knowledge of SEC records over the past century can order them based on this. Obviously Bama is at the top.
This post was edited on 6/13/13 at 8:50 am
Posted on 6/13/13 at 9:34 am to GeauxPack81
I'm going to go with Florida. Plenty of talent in that state, Miami isn't the program it once was, and their only real competition in state is Florida State.
Posted on 6/13/13 at 12:07 pm to GeauxPack81
Not that I'd put Mizzou much higher, but at least know what you're talking about if you're going to make posts like this.
No in state talent? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. That statement can simply not be made when a Heisman winner, top recruit in the nation, and multiple 1st round draft picks have come from Missouri in recent years. Plenty of good talent in MO, plus with 2 major urban centers and an increase in youth football in our state the numbers are going to keep going up.
I think what you mean by no tradition is that you're unfamiliar with it... big time bowls in our history, but were terrible at the beginning of the internet era, which is the beginning of time for ppl like you.
No in state talent? You obviously don't know what you're talking about. That statement can simply not be made when a Heisman winner, top recruit in the nation, and multiple 1st round draft picks have come from Missouri in recent years. Plenty of good talent in MO, plus with 2 major urban centers and an increase in youth football in our state the numbers are going to keep going up.
I think what you mean by no tradition is that you're unfamiliar with it... big time bowls in our history, but were terrible at the beginning of the internet era, which is the beginning of time for ppl like you.
Posted on 6/13/13 at 12:24 pm to GeauxPack81
That's a decent list. I like the criteria used and your analysis.
First, here is my list, then I will explain:
1. LSU
2. Florida
3. Alabama
4. Georgia
5. A&M
6. Auburn
7. Ole Miss
8. Tennessee
9. South Carolina
10. Arkansas
11. MSU
12. Missouri
13. Kentucky
14. Vandy
Building Blocks:
I would first group the teams based on whether or not the meet these categories:
1. Large, passionate fan base
2. Sufficient In-state talent
3. Limited In-state SEC or BCS recruiting competition
They come out like this:
LSU - 3/3 LSU stands alone.
Georgia 2/3 (Georgia Tech)
Florida 2/3 (Miami and FSU)
Texas A&M 2/3 (the fricking longhorns)
Alabama 2/3 (Auburn)
Auburn 2/3 (Alabama)
Ole Miss 2/3
MSU 2/3
Arkansas 2/3
Missouri 2/3 (talent)
South Carolina 1/3 (in-state talent and Clemson)
UT 1/3 (In-state talent and Vandy)
Kentucky 0/3 (talent, large fan base [football], Louisville)
Vandy 0/3 (Fan Base, In-state talent, and Tenn)
Attractiveness:
Then, there has to be some weight given to facilities and recruiting prowess.
First, facilities. Now this is debatable as frick, so I will give the benefit of the doubt where due, and group them:
Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, LSU, Tenn, South Carolina, Georgia, A&M, Ole Miss, MSU
Kentucky, Mizzou, Vandy
Recruiting Prowess:
Right now:
Alabama-- Scout #7, Rivals #9, ESPN #7, 24/7 #9
Arkansas-- 54, 40, NR, 54
Auburn-- 17, 17, 13, 17
Florida-- 14, 15, 9, 12
Georgia-- 18, 21, 16, 13
Kentucky-- 5, 9, 12, 7
LSU-- 5, 11, 4, 11
Missouri-- 39, 43, NR, 32
MSU-- 50, 45, NR, 45
Ole Miss-- 16, 14, 14, 6
South Carolina-- 43, 38, NR, 49
Tenn-- 6, 2, 6, 4
Texas A&M-- 1, 1, 2, 1
Vanderbilt-- 28, 27, 25, 30
Last two years (just using Rivals, too lazy):
Ave. Top 25ers:
Alabama-- 1, 1
Auburn-- 8, 10
Florida-- 4, 3
Georgia-- 12, 12
LSU-- 6, 16
Texas A&M-- 10, 15
South Carolina-- 16, 19
Tenn-- 21, 17
Ole Miss-- 7, 40
Ave. top 30:
MSU-- 26, 30
Vanderbilt-- 19, 29
Below top 30 average:
Arkansas-- 27, 34
Kentucky-- 29, 62
Missouri-- 41, 31
First, here is my list, then I will explain:
1. LSU
2. Florida
3. Alabama
4. Georgia
5. A&M
6. Auburn
7. Ole Miss
8. Tennessee
9. South Carolina
10. Arkansas
11. MSU
12. Missouri
13. Kentucky
14. Vandy
Building Blocks:
I would first group the teams based on whether or not the meet these categories:
1. Large, passionate fan base
2. Sufficient In-state talent
3. Limited In-state SEC or BCS recruiting competition
They come out like this:
LSU - 3/3 LSU stands alone.
Georgia 2/3 (Georgia Tech)
Florida 2/3 (Miami and FSU)
Texas A&M 2/3 (the fricking longhorns)
Alabama 2/3 (Auburn)
Auburn 2/3 (Alabama)
Ole Miss 2/3
MSU 2/3
Arkansas 2/3
Missouri 2/3 (talent)
South Carolina 1/3 (in-state talent and Clemson)
UT 1/3 (In-state talent and Vandy)
Kentucky 0/3 (talent, large fan base [football], Louisville)
Vandy 0/3 (Fan Base, In-state talent, and Tenn)
Attractiveness:
Then, there has to be some weight given to facilities and recruiting prowess.
First, facilities. Now this is debatable as frick, so I will give the benefit of the doubt where due, and group them:
Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, LSU, Tenn, South Carolina, Georgia, A&M, Ole Miss, MSU
Kentucky, Mizzou, Vandy
Recruiting Prowess:
Right now:
Alabama-- Scout #7, Rivals #9, ESPN #7, 24/7 #9
Arkansas-- 54, 40, NR, 54
Auburn-- 17, 17, 13, 17
Florida-- 14, 15, 9, 12
Georgia-- 18, 21, 16, 13
Kentucky-- 5, 9, 12, 7
LSU-- 5, 11, 4, 11
Missouri-- 39, 43, NR, 32
MSU-- 50, 45, NR, 45
Ole Miss-- 16, 14, 14, 6
South Carolina-- 43, 38, NR, 49
Tenn-- 6, 2, 6, 4
Texas A&M-- 1, 1, 2, 1
Vanderbilt-- 28, 27, 25, 30
Last two years (just using Rivals, too lazy):
Ave. Top 25ers:
Alabama-- 1, 1
Auburn-- 8, 10
Florida-- 4, 3
Georgia-- 12, 12
LSU-- 6, 16
Texas A&M-- 10, 15
South Carolina-- 16, 19
Tenn-- 21, 17
Ole Miss-- 7, 40
Ave. top 30:
MSU-- 26, 30
Vanderbilt-- 19, 29
Below top 30 average:
Arkansas-- 27, 34
Kentucky-- 29, 62
Missouri-- 41, 31
Posted on 6/13/13 at 8:33 pm to GeauxPack81
Florida, Bama, LSU, A&M and Georgia are the five schools with the best combo of fan support, facilities, money and recruiting bases. The other nine all have at least one serious deficiency in those areas.
Bama and LSU have the added luxury of essentially having no competition for their in-state talent. For instance, LSU is going to land the bet player in America this year by default.
Bama and LSU have the added luxury of essentially having no competition for their in-state talent. For instance, LSU is going to land the bet player in America this year by default.
Posted on 6/14/13 at 9:38 am to GeauxPack81
These lists are fun but of course no one will agree.
To me the key is LONG TERM success. When talking long term things like recent history and brand are far less important. Programs rise and fall, especially if they don't have the fundamentals in terms of population base, recruiting base, money, alumni size, and academic prowess behind them.
Long term I see it this way:
1. Florida
2. A&M
3. Georgia
4. Bama
5. LSU
6. UT
7. Auburn
8. USC
9. Mizzou
10. Ole Miss
11. Arky
12. State
13. UK
14. Vandy
BTW, some of you need to realize when bagging on A&M that when you talk about how much we have sucked in the last 15 years it actually strengthens this argument. A&M hasn't won a conf title since '98 and a Natty since '39 and yet we are going toe to toe with LSU, Bama, and UF all of which have multiple NC's in the last decade. What do you think happens when A&M breaks through?
UF is built to last in similar fashion. Florida isn't as big as Texas but the recruiting quality is very close and growing. They also have huge numbers behind them. FSU is no Texas but FSU and Miami combined are probably similar in terms of competition level.
UGA, Bama, and LSU are all powerhouses with tremendous resources as well and Bama has by far the strongest brand. Still the fundamentals are much stronger at A&M and UF GOING FORWARD. Doesn't mean that those teams might not dominate the next 20 years, it just means they have to work harder to do it.
To me the key is LONG TERM success. When talking long term things like recent history and brand are far less important. Programs rise and fall, especially if they don't have the fundamentals in terms of population base, recruiting base, money, alumni size, and academic prowess behind them.
Long term I see it this way:
1. Florida
2. A&M
3. Georgia
4. Bama
5. LSU
6. UT
7. Auburn
8. USC
9. Mizzou
10. Ole Miss
11. Arky
12. State
13. UK
14. Vandy
BTW, some of you need to realize when bagging on A&M that when you talk about how much we have sucked in the last 15 years it actually strengthens this argument. A&M hasn't won a conf title since '98 and a Natty since '39 and yet we are going toe to toe with LSU, Bama, and UF all of which have multiple NC's in the last decade. What do you think happens when A&M breaks through?
UF is built to last in similar fashion. Florida isn't as big as Texas but the recruiting quality is very close and growing. They also have huge numbers behind them. FSU is no Texas but FSU and Miami combined are probably similar in terms of competition level.
UGA, Bama, and LSU are all powerhouses with tremendous resources as well and Bama has by far the strongest brand. Still the fundamentals are much stronger at A&M and UF GOING FORWARD. Doesn't mean that those teams might not dominate the next 20 years, it just means they have to work harder to do it.
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