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re: How can Clemson generate more pass rush than us?
Posted on 1/15/20 at 8:17 am to Shaft Williams
Posted on 1/15/20 at 8:17 am to Shaft Williams
One DC is excellent while the other DC needs to be back in high school.
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Posted on 1/15/20 at 8:40 am to bbeck
I have to say that the Clemson 3-1-7 defensive look is promising. Venables had a lot of guys in the system and he's been coaching it a while. But he hardly ever lines his guys up in the same place twice. Lots of stunts and blitzes come off of it. Venable knew he had to keep Burrow's guessing and keep the heat on or else. I think he actually came into the game with the top-rated defense in the nation. Just didn't leave that way. He also didn't have all those All-Americans on the LOS to get his push as he did vs Alabama. Still, the way he schemed and created push up the middle of the offense with his LBers was outstanding in design. I think he had to rely on that look too often and Burrow's figured it out.
Staying on topic, I thought the barners did very well with their version of the 3-1-7 look vs LSU. Steele had the DL to control the front though and I think they probably gave the league the best blueprint on how to at least attack the LSU offense.
It was interesting to watch Kirby come out in his version of the 3-1-7 look in the SECCG. But Georgia didn't have the barners DL and quickly went back to what they knew best.
Still Clemson's 3-1-7 is the kind of stuff Bama needs to be taking a real hard look at. We need a DC that is innovative and has the freedom to dial up some of this stuff. It's another great way to try to get the best combination of speed and scheme on the field vs these spread teams.
Staying on topic, I thought the barners did very well with their version of the 3-1-7 look vs LSU. Steele had the DL to control the front though and I think they probably gave the league the best blueprint on how to at least attack the LSU offense.
It was interesting to watch Kirby come out in his version of the 3-1-7 look in the SECCG. But Georgia didn't have the barners DL and quickly went back to what they knew best.
Still Clemson's 3-1-7 is the kind of stuff Bama needs to be taking a real hard look at. We need a DC that is innovative and has the freedom to dial up some of this stuff. It's another great way to try to get the best combination of speed and scheme on the field vs these spread teams.
Posted on 1/15/20 at 8:41 am to Shaft Williams
Basically, when a defense is comprised principally of experienced upperclassmen, they can dance to one heartbeat. This is a team game, and generating a pass rush is a team/group effort. And so even though Clemson's defense in 2019 wasn't exceptionally talented, they played well as a unit.
Who remembers the 2004 Olympics in Basketball when the US team got waxed by Argentina? The US team was much more talented, but had only been playing together for a month. The Argentian team had been playing together for a decade or more, and embarassed the US team - because it's a team sport. Playing together and playing complimentary roles makes the sum more than the parts, and this is what Venables did with that defense in 2019.
Bama fans need to realize that talent without experience is frequently insufficient, and our defense was just f'ing snakebit in 2019 in that regard.
Also, Clemson's secondary wasn't elite this year, so they HAD to get to the QB by necessity to make the defense work. By comparison, in 2019 Bama was fairly comfortable playing coverage, and so we didn't have to sell out to get to the QB in the way Clemson needed to.
So there were some schematic necessities for Venables NEEDING to get to the QB.
Who remembers the 2004 Olympics in Basketball when the US team got waxed by Argentina? The US team was much more talented, but had only been playing together for a month. The Argentian team had been playing together for a decade or more, and embarassed the US team - because it's a team sport. Playing together and playing complimentary roles makes the sum more than the parts, and this is what Venables did with that defense in 2019.
Bama fans need to realize that talent without experience is frequently insufficient, and our defense was just f'ing snakebit in 2019 in that regard.
Also, Clemson's secondary wasn't elite this year, so they HAD to get to the QB by necessity to make the defense work. By comparison, in 2019 Bama was fairly comfortable playing coverage, and so we didn't have to sell out to get to the QB in the way Clemson needed to.
So there were some schematic necessities for Venables NEEDING to get to the QB.
This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 8:56 am
Posted on 1/15/20 at 9:01 am to prevatt33b
After giving up nearly 600 yds of offense to LSU maybe we should have made it a necessity . 
Posted on 1/15/20 at 9:01 am to prevatt33b
quote:
Also, Clemson's secondary wasn't elite this year, so they HAD to get to the QB by necessity to make the defense work. By comparison, in 2019 Bama was fairly comfortable playing coverage, and so we didn't have to sell out to get to the QB in the way Clemson needed to.
And Bama's defense was elite? You mean Bama was getting to the QB? I would suggest we were having far more difficulty with our defensive schemes than Clemson throughout the year.
Golding chose to be more reactive than proactive with pressure and innovation all-season vs spread teams. Our DBs being able to cover should have been a strength in that equation.
Posted on 1/15/20 at 11:00 am to bamameister
quote:
And Bama's defense was elite? You mean Bama was getting to the QB?
Bama's defense was not elite...but we got to Burrow just as much as Clemson did. Even as young and inexperienced as we were, our D was the only defense in the nation that didn't allow a 50+ yard play all year; Clemson gave up two such plays to LSU on Monday night alone. We finished #20 in total defense, which is below Bama standards; but that's still 8 spots higher than Kevin Steele's Auburn D (#28) and 11 spots higher than Dave Aranda's LSU unit (#31). Both AU and LSU had much more experienced defensive units than Bama.
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I would suggest we were having far more difficulty with our defensive schemes than Clemson throughout the year.
Yeah, and Clemson was playing with a much more experienced D. They had 1 Freshman, 3 Sophomores (1 a RS Soph), 3 Juniors (2 RS Jrs), 1 Senior, and 3 Grad students starting in their base D. Their starting LBs were all in their 4th year (or more) in college football. Compare that with our starters.
As for simplifying our defense, some have used Clemson as a comparison. I don't see Venables as running stuff that simple; last year against us, he mentioned changing to a D they hadn't run all year (that's not a simple thing to do). Read a couple of articles touting Alex Grinch's 'Speed D' defense being simple with just a few rules and running to the ball and how much it improved the Sooner defense this year. But LSU still torched it...
I know I'm in the overwhelming minority, but I can't tell if Golding is as bad a DC as most on this board believe; he might be, but I'm not sure if any Power 5 DCs have ever had as many true freshmen in one season starting on defense as Bama did this year, especially a fellow blue blood. I know some will say well why hasn't Golding developed the more senior backup ILBs so the freshmen wouldn't have to start? I would remind those that Jeremy Pruitt was the DC/ILB coach when the top ILB in the nation, 5-star Ben Davis, came to Bama as a freshman, coached him for two years and Davis has barely sniffed the field...is that Pruitt's fault?
If Golding is retained for next season and the defense doesn't show a lot of improvement, then yeah, he needs to go...but I find it hard to judge him on this season as he's had to face circumstances that neither Smart nor Pruitt faced.
Posted on 1/15/20 at 11:03 am to RammerJammer91
quote:
Hopefully our staff is taking notice.
Large, tall DEs have been a hallmark of the 3-4 for decades. Do you honestly think Saban will back off what he's done?
LOL
Posted on 1/15/20 at 11:03 am to OldPete
quote:
As for simplifying our defense, some have used Clemson as a comparison. I don't see Venables as running stuff that simple; last year against us, he mentioned changing to a D they hadn't run all year (that's not a simple thing to do). Read a couple of articles touting Alex Grinch's 'Speed D' defense being simple with just a few rules and running to the ball and how much it improved the Sooner defense this year. But LSU still torched it...
I know I'm in the overwhelming minority, but I can't tell if Golding is as bad a DC as most on this board believe; he might be, but I'm not sure if any Power 5 DCs have ever had as many true freshmen in one season starting on defense as Bama did this year, especially a fellow blue blood. I know some will say well why hasn't Golding developed the more senior backup ILBs so the freshmen wouldn't have to start? I would remind those that Jeremy Pruitt was the DC/ILB coach when the top ILB in the nation, 5-star Ben Davis, came to Bama as a freshman, coached him for two years and Davis has barely sniffed the field...is that Pruitt's fault?
If Golding is retained for next season and the defense doesn't show a lot of improvement, then yeah, he needs to go...but I find it hard to judge him on this season as he's had to face circumstances that neither Smart nor Pruitt faced.
I think if you can hire someone near Pruitt's level as a DC, you make the change, especially if they are a better recruiter than Golding appears to be. My issue with Golding is far more on the recruiting side of the ball then with the actual defense.
A different DC this past season doesn't "fix" this defense, a time machine to stop Dylan Moses from practicing that day would do far more good.
This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 11:05 am
Posted on 1/15/20 at 11:06 am to OldPete
quote:
We finished #20 in total defense, which is below Bama standards; but that's still 8 spots higher than Kevin Steele's Auburn D (#28) and 11 spots higher than Dave Aranda's LSU unit (#31).
One thing you have to consider is both AU and especially LSU faced better offenses than Bama did.
Posted on 1/15/20 at 11:09 am to 1BamaRTR
Sure, but Sp+ accounts for that and Alabama still finished 6th, 3 spots behind clemson, 2 spots behind Auburn, and 13 ahead of LSU. (This is prior to final update to include NCG stats)
Posted on 1/15/20 at 11:42 am to OldPete
quote:
Bama's defense was not elite...but we got to Burrow just as much as Clemson did. Even as young and inexperienced as we were, our D was the only defense in the nation that didn't allow a 50+ yard play all year; Clemson gave up two such plays to LSU on Monday night alone. We finished #20 in total defense, which is below Bama standards; but that's still 8 spots higher than Kevin Steele's Auburn D (#28) and 11 spots higher than Dave Aranda's LSU unit (#31). Both AU and LSU had much more experienced defensive units than Bama.
You got a lot to say about something I wasn't speaking on. I merely ask the Bama fan if he thought this Bama defense was elite? Or that we were somehow getting pressure on the QBs this season. My implication was no, on both accounts.
I've spoken extensively on how the 3-1-7 defense was being used by Clemson, the Barn, and a little Georgia vs LSU.
I also said that Golding hasn't shown that type of "innovation." I also said his style was a lot more "reactive" than "proactive" in defending the spread teams.
I don't think the Clemson vs LSU game speaks to all those feelings I have about Bama's DC nor his game planning this season.
quote:
I know I'm in the overwhelming minority, but I can't tell if Golding is as bad a DC as most on this board believe; he might be, but I'm not sure if any Power 5 DCs have ever had as many true freshmen in one season starting on defense as Bama did this year, especially a fellow blue blood. I know some will say well why hasn't Golding developed the more senior backup ILBs so the freshmen wouldn't have to start? I would remind those that Jeremy Pruitt was the DC/ILB coach when the top ILB in the nation, 5-star Ben Davis, came to Bama as a freshman, coached him for two years and Davis has barely sniffed the field...is that Pruitt's fault?
A lot has been said about the job Golding has done this season. You just have to decide for yourself. I'm troubled more personally about the guys who weren't freshmen and the fundamentals that you don't expect to go away. Especially in our biggest games and in LSU's case, with 2 weeks to prepare. That 4th quarter was an outright horror story. At that point, stats don't matter. When we got back into that game and got within a TD of taking the lead we were ridiculously clueless. Those are huge moments for me personally when I think about this DC.
Everyone has their own measuring stick. Golding will never get past my "eye test." In our biggest games, the ones where talent doesn't just overwhelm the opponent, Golding was never the difference. That's troubling.
Posted on 1/15/20 at 11:56 am to Bamafan24
quote:as long as you don't let an athletic QB slip through and gash you in the run game.
running3-1-7 seems to be a solid formation to battle the offense
Burrow's mobility to keep plays alive and force Clemson to account for him as a runner changed the effectiveness of that 3-1-7 approach. It wasn't tremendously effective after LSU adjusted.
But, it looked like the best D EVER for the first 15 minutes.
Posted on 1/15/20 at 12:04 pm to Bear88
quote:
After giving up nearly 600 yds of offense to LSU maybe we should have made it a necessity
In that game, both defenses got carved up by offenses that were much better. Hell, we carved their D up like a Thanksgiving turkey. And LSU smoked every defense they faced, defenses much better than ours.
And so, what's your point?
Play perfect shutdown defense, no matter the opponent, context, or injuries? OK, we'll get that message to Saban ASAP. Many thanks.
This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 12:09 pm
Posted on 1/15/20 at 12:19 pm to prevatt33b
Point was our plan wasn’t working and getting “ carved up like a turkey” . Maybe the staff could have done something crazy and tried some adjustments 
We gut to Burrow some with our base pressure but as someone who was at the game ... most of the time he had all day to stand in there and go through his reads . Can’t do that with Burrow
Nobody said play shutdown defense . Would be nice but not realistic . However , we , over the course of the year , did not show much ability to make adjustments . Yes, I can see that early with freshman LBs but as the season goes on , you expect them to improve . You can take that to Saban or whatever your usual BS is you spew
We gut to Burrow some with our base pressure but as someone who was at the game ... most of the time he had all day to stand in there and go through his reads . Can’t do that with Burrow Nobody said play shutdown defense . Would be nice but not realistic . However , we , over the course of the year , did not show much ability to make adjustments . Yes, I can see that early with freshman LBs but as the season goes on , you expect them to improve . You can take that to Saban or whatever your usual BS is you spew
This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 12:26 pm
Posted on 1/15/20 at 12:23 pm to bamameister
quote:
You got a lot to say about something I wasn't speaking on.
My bad, other than agreeing that our defense wasn't elite that wasn't directed at you, just observations in general that came to mind.
quote:
I also said that Golding hasn't shown that type of "innovation." I also said his style was a lot more "reactive" than "proactive" in defending the spread teams.
I agree with you here...I'm just giving Golding the benefit of the doubt. I assumed a 'reactive' style was probably more a result of having two true freshmen in the middle...but, if Golding stays, we'll see if that's the case when he has a lot more experience next year.
quote:
That 4th quarter was an outright horror story. At that point, stats don't matter. When we got back into that game and got within a TD of taking the lead we were ridiculously clueless.
I don't know...we apparently made good adjustments as we shut 'em out in the 3rd quarter...and we had our chances in the fourth. The play that irked me wasn't because of Golding. There was a third and 10 in the fourth quarter, I think LSU was just beyond midfield, when we were down by a score. We blitzed and got immediate pressure on Burrow, but he got the pass away, tossing an outlet to Edwards-Helaire who made a shoe-string catch around the LOS...Diggs was in position for the tackle but he went high and CEH dragged him more than a few yards past the first down marker. If we make an immediate tackle there, might've been a game changer...
This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 1/15/20 at 12:33 pm to OldPete
That was a big play .....so frustrating 
Posted on 1/15/20 at 12:38 pm to Bear88
quote:
I can see that early with freshman LBs but as the season goes on , you expect them to improve
They did improve, but so did the quality of the opposing offenses.
quote:
our plan wasn’t working
Nobody had a plan that worked versus LSU. Most teams brought a lot of pressure versus them in the first half of the season , and it was shown not to work. Burrow just got the ball out too quickly,, and when he didn't, he'd scramble and improvise for a big play with his legs or arm.
And so as the season wore on, most teams abandoned pressure in favor of getting more guys in coverage. LSU smoked that noise as well.
And so, in light of the fact that multiple million-dollar experts on the subject tried everything imaginable to stop LSU and failed, including exactly what you suggested earlier in this thread, one eventually gets annoyed at our fanbase incessantly criticizing or coaching staff for the sole purpose of bitching and acting like they've got the answers.
You don't have the Xs and Os solution, hoss. "Pressure Burrow more" isn't the solution. Many tried and failed. And so, yeah, I'm tired of this board's shite. Granted, yours in this thread is milder than most (and if memory serves, I like your posts frequently), but I'm still pissed. The baseless criticism needs to stop as it's just ruining the board. The shite Takes are constant, and I'd rather not see it for the next 7 months.
This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 12:40 pm
Posted on 1/15/20 at 12:51 pm to prevatt33b
Well hoss, I don’t believe you do either but constantly spew your opinions on this board and shite on people who have a different one than yours . You were banned once for this and changed for a little while but now you are back to your same MO. You make good points sometimes but you come across as a blow hard to anyone who has a different opinion than you. I do not attack players or coaches per se as done on here but if you expect to come on here and not see people bitching about this or that or have opinions different than yours ( as a coach , I can talk Xs and Os all day) then maybe you shouldn’t read this board for the next 7 months . I have not called for Golding’s head and have alluded to our injuries and youth many times but there are plenty who want him gone and that is their opinion and right to express it on this board
. I have not called for Golding’s head and have alluded to our injuries and youth many times but there are plenty who want him gone and that is their opinion and right to express it on this board This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 1/15/20 at 1:00 pm to Bear88
quote:
I can see that early with freshman LBs but as the season goes on , you expect them to improve
Another HUGE point about this supposed improvement you (and the rest of the board) wanted to see is the "freshman wall", which Saban has talked about at length. Their bodies are not ready for the rigors and length of the college season, and their minds eventually get overwhelmed. And all of this happens during their first year at college away from home, while trying to learn to balance school and football.
Expecting true freshman ILBs to be the best version of themselves in November is a LUDICROUS expectation.
Posted on 1/15/20 at 1:05 pm to prevatt33b
Nobody said they were or should be finished products . You use hyperbole too much
This post was edited on 1/15/20 at 1:06 pm
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