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BeefDawg
Georgia Fan
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4308 posts
 Online 

re: Football this fall???
quote:

Let's see if we can find common ground.
Can a mask on a healthy person reduce the risk of catching covid 19?

Just reply yes or no.

Can a mask on an asymptomatic person reduce the risk of spreading covid 19?

Just a yes or no is fine.

This is intellectually dishonest, though, because there's way more complexity to each question.

1. If I'm healthy, and I wear a mask, I can still get COVID if a sick person coughs or sneezes near/on me because billions upon billions of microscopic particles/droplets can still go through my mask or around the mask through gaps in the side when I inhale. Especially a surgical mask or bandana mask, which the overwhelming vast majority of people are wearing.

2. At the same time, I could be asphyxiating myself and causing pseudo-hypoxia, or inhaling harmful bacteria I've created in the mask, or inhaling polypropylene particles that the mask is made of that have broken off the mask, or reduced the strength of my immune system, or damaged my sympathetic system, and at the very least irritating my skin and causing unsightly rashes on my face.

3. Oh, and lets try also looking at the psychological aspect of all this. Face covering like a burka is dehumanizing and designed to force restraint, reduced non-verbal communication, reduced social interactions especially simple conversations and meeting new people and touching/human contact, muffled speech when you do talk to someone, reduced sexual/kissing interactions, fear of being shamed/cancelled/losing job/losing social acquaintances, fear of being legally cited for not wearing a mask and forced to pay a fine, increased seclusion/isolation, demoralization from forced compliance....


You can't make this a yes/no thing since there are so many possible extenuating circumstances that can be argued pro and con. Not to mention the fact that this virus treats demographics of people differently, you can't make a one-size-fits-all blanket recommendation/mandate across the board. Old people=vulnerable, respiratory/renal/vascular pre-ex=vulnerable, under-35=virtually immune, healthy/active under-60=virtually immune, black=more susceptible, white=less susceptible... etc. etc. etc.


And, lastly, when and where does it end?

We're already down to 0.3% mortality rate (and dropping) and 255k nationwide hospitalizations (with the average age being 77), out of 40 million people tested and 3.5 million of those being positive (<9%). So like a 7% hospitalization rate, which won't last as it will also go down eventually as more testing is done.

Which are all surely grave over-rates as there's clearly way more than 3.5 million people who have had this virus, as barely 12% of the population has even been tested.


So when do we go, "Okay, we're done with masks and social distancing. It's time to get back to normal."

When we've tested 330 million people and realize 30 million were infected and the mortality rate is actually 0.1% and the hospitalization rate is less than 1% per year?


Or is this permanent?

The hospitals are no where close to being full. They are barely at 10% occupancy. We have plenty of PPE. Plenty of ventilators. Children are virtually immune.

When does it end?

And what about the vaccines? Around 50 million people get the flu each year and yet there's around 0.3% hospitalizations and 0.1% deaths, even with a vaccine.

Are we going to get forced into compliance to get a vaccine for COVID when it's numbers are only slightly worse than the flu?


When and where does this shite fricking end?
This post was edited on 7/10 at 3:00 pm


BeefDawg
Georgia Fan
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4308 posts
 Online 

re: Football this fall???
quote:

All of the "masks are bad" arguments presume
1) that you will live in the mask 24 hours a day and never expose yourself to another germ.
2) that you will live in the mask 24 hours a day and bacteria for that duration is bad for you.
3) that masks are not perfect as if that is some great acknowledgement. They dont seal on the outside. Because they aren't perfect, they do not help ever?
Sorry, but you don't get to act like you're being honest in the midst of saying something I didn't say. Meaning you just lied.

I never made an "all masks are bad" argument or presumed people are being made to live in masks 24 hours a day.


If you're going to debate on the back of false and hyperbolic exaggerations, then you lose.


meansonny
Georgia Fan
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
11706 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

This is intellectually dishonest, though, because there's way more complexity to each question.



It is intellectually dishonest to acknowledge nuance in a discussion?
For you to have an honest discussion, everything must be black and white?
quote:

. If I'm healthy, and I wear a mask, I can still get COVID if a sick person coughs or sneezes near/on me because billions upon billions of microscopic particles/droplets can still go through my mask or around the mask through gaps in the side when I inhale. Especially a surgical mask or bandana mask, which the overwhelming vast majority of people are wearing.

Yes. A healthy person wearing mask can still get covid.
Is that a legitimate argument that masks can not help contain the spread?
You make it sound like my question is dishonest. But you refuse to answer it for some reason because nuance is dishonest?
quote:

At the same time, I could be asphyxiating myself and causing pseudo-hypoxia, or inhaling harmful bacteria I've created in the mask, or inhaling polypropylene particles that the mask is made of that have broken off the mask, or reduced the strength of my immune system, or damaged my sympathetic system, and at the very least irritating my skin and causing unsightly rashes on my face.

Putting mask on at the grocery store will not asphyxiate you. It will not cause pseudohypoxia.
Can you acknowledge that the recommendation for the mask is at a store? Or a public gathering? And that your short participation in such will not asphyxiate you? I'm laughing as I type this.
quote:

Oh, and lets try also looking at the psychological aspect of all this. Face covering like a burka is dehumanizing and designed to force restraint, reduced non-verbal communication, reduced social interactions especially simple conversations and meeting new people and touching/human contact, muffled speech when you do talk to someone, reduced sexual/kissing interactions, fear of being shamed/cancelled/losing job/losing social acquaintances, fear of being legally cited for not wearing a mask and forced to pay a fine, increased seclusion/isolation, demoralization from forced compliance....

You are really reaching, here. You have replaced common sense with a hard wall of argument void of any opportunity to have a reasonable discussion. For what it is worth, I am against any fines or citations. I am for private businesses operating at their own discretion.

quote:

You can't make this a yes/no thing since there are so many possible extenuating circumstances that can be argued pro and con.


I have a degree in risk management.
When contextualizing layers of risk, you absolutely can ask yes and no questions.
Someone who cant be honest with facts, a discussion, and themselves can avoid yes no questions because he cant handle simple questions about nuance.
quote:

You can't make this a yes/no thing since there are so many possible extenuating circumstances that can be argued pro and con. Not to mention the fact that this virus treats demographics of people differently, you can't make a one-size-fits-all blanket recommendation/mandate across the board. Old people=vulnerable, respiratory/renal/vascular pre-ex=vulnerable, under-35=virtually immune, healthy/active under-60=virtually immune, black=more susceptible, white=less susceptible... etc. etc. etc.


I agree that the virus treats people differently.
But you can still ask a simple question about risk and risk avoidance. Does a mask decrease the likelihood of spread for covid 19 versus no mask?
quote:

And, lastly, when and where does it end?

We're already down to 0.3% mortality rate (and dropping) and 255k nationwide hospitalizations (with the average age being 77), out of 40 million people tested and 3.5 million of those being positive (<9%). So like a 7% hospitalization rate and dropping.

Which are all surely grave over-rates as there's clearly way more than 3.5 million people who have had this virus, as barely 12% of the population has even been tested.

I agree with your statement.
What does that have to do with the positive benefit of a mask? What questions are you trying to avoid about barriers to spreading droplets?
quote:

So when do we go, "Okay, we're done with masks and social distancing. It's time to get back to normal."

When we've tested 330 million people and realize 30 million were infected and the mortality rate is actually 0.1% and the hospitalization rate is less than 1% per year?



This is actually a great question. One that should be discussed publicly by health professionals and politicians. A question that they avoid. I dont know the answer. We aren't there yet, in my opinion. But I absolutely admit that I haven't given great thought and discussion. I absolutely can be swayed.

quote:

And what about the vaccines? Around 50 million people get the flu each year and yet there's around 0.3% hospitalizations and 0.1% deaths, even with a vaccine.

Are we going to get forced into compliance to get a vaccine for COVID when it's numbers are only slightly worse than the flu?


When and where does this shite fricking end?

These are great questions. I doubt we ever get a reliable vaccine. We've been studying coronavirus for a long time. They have been more prevalent than the flu (just no where near as deadly in the past). But who knows.

I only have 1 statement.
A mask reduces the risk of spreading and receiving coronavirus.
I believe that to be a strong hypothesis.
A lot of the noise arguing against that theory ignores real life usages of the mask (maybe I wear a mask for the 30 minutes at a grocery store, 30 minutes at home depot, and 30 minutes talking to a neighbor a week. Bacteria, pseudo-hypoxia, and missing out on a kiss are not concerns of mine. My wife would have hers at the office for 8 hours. But she would step away for breaks. She would wear a new mask each day. She says the mask can get warm. And that is the only complaint on an 8 hour workday.


Broncothor
Georgia Fan
Member since Jul 2014
2877 posts

re: Football this fall???
Do you have to wear a mask if your head is up your ass? Asking for the Lefties.


meansonny
Georgia Fan
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
11706 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

Sorry, but you don't get to act like you're being honest in the midst of saying something I didn't say. Meaning you just lied.

I never made an "all masks are bad" argument or presumed people are being made to live in masks 24 hours a day.


I didnt mean to imply those were all your arguments in this thread.
It is more of an experience with arguments that I have had with family members. Or on other sites.
I apologize for the confusion. "All" wasn't intended at you.
quote:

f you're going to debate on the back of false and hyperbolic exaggerations, then you lose.

The use of "all" was to counter the common tropes (some brought up by you) against masks.

Bacteria?
Nobody is wearing a mask for over 24 hours straight. No one.

CO2 issues? To my knowledge, this has been a real concern for doctors and nurses going 10 hours without a break. I acknowledge it as a concern for a profession that will wear a mask and the individual does not take proper care of oneself. How many people are not doctors and nurses? How many people do not wear masks outdoors unless they are having a close conversation with a stranger? This seems to be the more prevalent MO. And CO2 is not a concern here.

Can a mask be of poor quality? Absolutely. There is an easy test. Let me know if you want it shared.

Can a mask be used improperly?
Absolutely.
Believe it or not, people can do a poor job washing their hands and brushing their teeth. That does not make a good argument for people avoiding washing their hands and brushing their teeth. Some care and effort is needed to do things right.


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10
meansonny
Georgia Fan
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
11706 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

Do you have to wear a mask if your head is up your ass? Asking for the Lefties.



I dont think anyone should have to wear a mask unless their employer or a private property owner requires it.

I dont think people should be forced to eat fruits and vegetables. Shouldn't be forced to see a primary care physician. Shouldn't be forced to see a dentist. Shouldn't be forced to use toilet paper.
Live your life, man.


BeefDawg
Georgia Fan
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4308 posts
 Online 

re: Football this fall???
quote:

It is intellectually dishonest to acknowledge nuance in a discussion?
For you to have an honest discussion, everything must be black and white?
Huh? I'm the one discussing n+1 factors and complexity. You're the one trying to turn it into a black and white (yes or no) thing.

How do you not see that?


You have a degree is risk management and you can't see that the risk factors of COVID itself has dropped so much it's on a trajectory to be just barely worse than the flu???

You have a degree in risk management and you think a 0.3% mortality rate and 7% hospitalization rate (which any professional risk analyzer would know is going to decrease significantly as testing increases) with only 12% of the country even tested, warrants pandemic levels of risk minimization?????


This isn't just about wearing masks for 30 minutes here or there, or taking enough breaks at jobs to not harm yourself from the downsides of mask wearing.

This is also about realizing this "pandemic" was never a pandemic, and this thing is going to ultimately settle in as just another yearly virus that's only slightly more infectious than the flu but focuses almost all it's efforts at elderly and unhealthy people, and that this isn't going to ever go away or get much worse than that.

And when you take that into consideration, unless we plan on wearing masks like you're suggesting forever, and the answer to that is NO, then WTF is the point of wearing them now?

And when you think about that answer, you come to realize that there's no logical reason for it unless this thing was actually a real pandemic and on a trajectory to be worse than the stats that are all trending down.

And then you realize, well yeah, WTF is the point? And you come to the conclusion that the only logical explanation is it's become political. Somebody is profiting off this. Somebody is exploiting this for some kind of gain.

There's no other rational reason why would need to wear masks now, but not forever going into the future.

This can't last. We can't stay shut down. We can't stay isolated. We can't stay social distanced. We can't keep businesses closed down and going out of business. We can't keep this up and the country survive.

And we certainly don't need to when the mortality rate is only 0.3% or less already, and that's without even having a goddamn vaccine yet.


2 years from now, 1/1,000,000th of people will be wearing a mask when going to the grocery store. And what will have changed? A vaccine that not everyone has taken? 50 million people get the flu every year and it has a vaccine.

So what really will have changed from then to now that warrants masks now, but not in 2 years?

Virtually nothing, except the fact all the risk factors have dropped to slightly worse than flu levels, which it's already very close to.
This post was edited on 7/10 at 3:58 pm


djsdawg
Georgia Fan
Member since Apr 2015
19742 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

dont think people should be forced to eat fruits and vegetables. Shouldn't be forced to see a primary care physician. Shouldn't be forced to see a dentist. Shouldn't be forced to use toilet paper.
Live your life, man.


True, people should be good Samaritan’s and do their part, but some refuse to do so.

There is also difference between victimless acts like these examples and those that effect others.


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meansonny
Georgia Fan
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
11706 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

Huh? I'm the one discussing n+1 factors and complexity. You're the one trying to turn it into a black and white (yes or no) thing.

How do you not see that?


You are trenched in so deep that you cannot acknowledge that a mask can help slow the spread of coronavirus. You cannot acknowledge any benefit of a tool specifically designed for the purpose of droplets.
You cannot acknowledge the benefit from a tool used since the 1960s and principles since the late 19th century.

I can grant every truth that you tout. I can acknowledge nuance. I can admit issues and vulnerabilities. But I'm not going to deny benefits of a tool as simple and commonly used as a mask.

quote:

You have a degree is risk management and you can't see that the risk factors of COVID itself has dropped so much it's on a trajectory to be just barely worse than the flu???


I can acknowledge that covid is near harmless to kids. It is safer than the flu for young people. I can acknowledge that people who are overweight and take cholesterol and blood pressure medicine... it can be serious. More serious than the flu. I can acknowledge that my mother in law who is a retired nurse and has rheumatoid arthritis... it is serious.

quote:

You have a degree in risk management and you think a 0.3% mortality rate and 7% hospitalization rate (which any professional risk analyzer would know is going to decrease significantly as testing increases) with only 12% of the country even tested, warrants pandemic levels of risk minimization?????

You yourself admit that it affects different people in different ways.
Since it affects different people in different ways, do you suggest we do nothing?
Since it affects different people in different ways and it is much more contagious than the flu (not more deadly in the broad scale, but more contagious for everyone), do you think that simple measures to prevent spread are dumb?

I get it. I know the numbers. It is slightly worse than the flu for the world as a whole. But for specific populations (how many people in the south do you think are overweight?), it should be taken seriously.
If the biggest issue is contagion (twice as easy to spread than the flu) then maybe counter measures to contagion would be smart.
quote:

This isn't just about wearing masks for 30 minutes here or there, or taking enough breaks at jobs to not harm yourself from the downsides of mask wearing.


Not for everyone. But for a lot of people, it is. No one is claiming benefits of wearing a mask in the car. Or outside (unless in close proximity to strangers). Or inside (unless in close proximity to strangers).
Specifically, what type of person are you referencing here?
quote:

This is also about realizing this "pandemic" was never a pandemic, and this thing is going to ultimately settle in as just another yearly virus that's only slightly more infectious than the flu but focuses almost all it's efforts at elderly and unhealthy people, and that this isn't going to ever go away or get much worse than that.

The media lies. Politicians lie. Hospitals lie.
I get it. They have money motivating their words and actions.
But that doesnt mean that covid 19 is less than twice as likely to spread than the flu. That doesnt mean that overweight people, people who take daily prescriptions, and people advanced in age are significantly more likely to die than from the flu.
Just like wiping your arse and washing your hands, there is a simple step that is proven to reduce the risk of spread. It is a tool. Not a magic formula. But is proven to help.
quote:

And when you take that into consideration, unless we plan on wearing masks like you're suggesting forever, and the answer to that is NO, then WTF is the point of wearing them now?

I never said forever.
Has anyone on this board said forever?
This smells like another red herring.
Since you fear forever, never is a better alternative to you?
quote:

And when you think about that answer, you come to realize that there's no logical reason for it unless this thing was actually a real pandemic and on a trajectory to be worse than the stats that are all trending down.

And then you realize, well yeah, WTF is the point? And you come to the conclusion that the only logical explanation is it's become political. Somebody is profiting off this. Somebody is exploiting this for some kind of gain.

It absolutely has become political.
That is true.

But masks reduce the spread of covid 19.
That is also true.

2 things can be true at once.
That is not a binary question.

You seem to think that my binary question, "does a mask reduce the risk of spreading covid 19" is some sort of gotcha. It isnt. It is a simple question that I enjoy watching you wiggle from.
The question has nothing to do with how covid 19 is safer for children than the flu.
The question has nothing to do with how covid 19 is much more serious than the flu for overweight, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, heart disease individuals.
The question has nothing to do with how the flu and covid 19 are seriously dangerous equally for people who are immunocompromised.

The question has to deal with the worst aspect of covid 19. The ease with which it spreads. And using a cheap, simple tool to limit that spread.


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20
djsdawg
Georgia Fan
Member since Apr 2015
19742 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

That statement I made was about COVID molecules being so small they pass right through surgical mask’s large pours.


We already went over this stuff. Try to keep up:

A mask is gonna stop some of those from being dispersed.
A mask is gonna reduce how far the ones that get out are dispersed.
Not wearing a mask isnt going to do either.

Hopefully the COVID cases dont continue to sky rocket because of idiots like you refusing to wear masks.


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11
djsdawg
Georgia Fan
Member since Apr 2015
19742 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

Right, you're a regular Pythagoras.


And you possess the little rig mind, one capable of toasting a pop tart very efficiently.


olddawg26
Georgia Fan
Member since Jan 2013
20838 posts

re: Football this fall???
I think everyone can agree on a couple of things.

1. Everyone is either going to get this, or get the vaccine or die before either. It’s not going to go away by masks, social distancing, or ruining the economy.

2. The balance between ruining the economy and overflowing hospitals has to be the correct choices being made. “Flattening the curve” was the original thought behind the quarantine and I figure enough people had it where a slow reopen was the next step. Georgia went wide open which is fine, we benefited from that.

The current spike is climbing pretty quick and instead for another closure of everything I think most officials are trying to harp on at least being cognizant of trying to wear a mask in places that request them where vulnerable people have to go shopping. If the masks help 10% and proper social distancing helps even more, that’s their way of helping to slow the spread without extreme measures. Does anyone disagree?


Whiznot
Georgia Fan
Albany, GA
Member since Oct 2013
5027 posts

re: Football this fall???
None of the European countries are in our predicament.

Social distancing and masks make a very real difference, especially for the people who make use of those protections.

I intend to protect, as well as I'm able, my friends, my relatives and myself. I'm lucky in that all my friends and relatives are also risk adverse.
This post was edited on 7/10 at 9:36 pm


olddawg26
Georgia Fan
Member since Jan 2013
20838 posts

re: Football this fall???
I mean I get that. But the virus is going to be around until a vaccine is made or everyone is shut in for 10 years. Aren’t the european countries just flattening the curve but will be dealing with the virus for much longer?

Edit: assuming once you get this you’ve got the antibodies and are done with it.
This post was edited on 7/10 at 9:38 pm


Whiznot
Georgia Fan
Albany, GA
Member since Oct 2013
5027 posts

re: Football this fall???
The R naught value in Europe is below 1. They are close to eradicating the virus and have not much to worry about. The infection rate over there is low enough to allow effective contact tracing. People are still wearing masks in Europe. I saw good safety practices in a video of Danish school children.

Europe will still have some infections but we won't get rid of the virus before they do--we will just have more dead and damaged people along with a wrecked economy. As long as the virus is anywhere its not over.
This post was edited on 7/11 at 8:56 am


deeprig9
Member since Sep 2012
40323 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

As long as the virus is anywhere its not over.


So what is your solution?


djsdawg
Georgia Fan
Member since Apr 2015
19742 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

So what is your solution?


Ideally? Wear masks + Socially distance

With the rising COVID #'s, both cases and deaths, ideal probably isnt gonna cut it.



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33
baconwaffle
Georgia Fan
El Paso, Texas
Member since Jan 2013
140 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

1. Everyone is either going to get this, or get the vaccine or die before either. It’s not going to go away by masks, social distancing, or ruining the economy.

In the United States at this point? Probably. If the virus isn't already endemic, it will be shortly. But I reject the notion that this was a forgone conclusion. Certain other countries have R-naught values below 1.

quote:

“Flattening the curve” was the original thought behind the quarantine

Agreed. However there is a difference between a quarantine/lockdown, and requirements to maintain social distance and wear a mask while in public, if that's where you are going with this. Curves won't stay flat if people reengage in the behavior that made the curve spike in the first place.

quote:

Georgia went wide open which is fine, we benefited from that.

That remains to be seen in the long term. We do not have this under control.

quote:

The current spike is climbing pretty quick and instead for another closure of everything I think most officials are trying to harp on at least being cognizant of trying to wear a mask in places that request them where vulnerable people have to go shopping. If the masks help 10% and proper social distancing helps even more, that’s their way of helping to slow the spread without extreme measures. Does anyone disagree?

I agree. I have been saying this for months.


Whiznot
Georgia Fan
Albany, GA
Member since Oct 2013
5027 posts

re: Football this fall???
Regardless of what politicians decree, economic health isn't possible in the face of a raging pandemic. People value their health over everything else. That fact may not be obvious yet but it will become so in the not too distant future.


IT_Dawg
Georgia Fan
Georgia
Member since Oct 2012
15407 posts

re: Football this fall???
quote:

economic health isn't possible in the face of a raging pandemic

Well that’s bull shite. Look at the recover in the face of 1918. Look at the rest of the world right now that isn’t fear mongering any longer and not running up there own death counts on purpose...
quote:

People value their health over everything else

Cool, so it has nothing to do with Trump or his policies, it’s just the dumb fricks dying for not caring about their health....
quote:

That fact may not be obvious yet but it will become so in the not too distant future.

So eventually everyone will start caring for their health more than they do now??

Whiznut, you keep doubling down on saying the dumbest shite. You need to stick with regurgitating the Fake media, cause your thoughts are full on fricking retarded. You should probably be posting on the Ole Miss board with this ignorance


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