re: The Gaza land invasion (Day 46) ...

That's an ignorant view not supported by history but instead lies. You are a liar and a spreader of stupidity.


Israel are the terrorists since they invaded the Palestinian homeland and stole the land away from them. They gained entrance to Palestine using the British Imperialists controlling the region at the time. They created this ally by using their European banking systems to help back the Brits and Americans in WW2. They then bribed the turks to help their people immigrate back into this region. Initially they tried to buy up much of the land but after years of doing so only resulted in gaining 6% of the land. When this tactic failed they used the British Empire to help their cause and then bought up power in the new United Nations.


The UN then tried giving Israel 56% of the lands of the region despite actually being the minority population of the area. Even with this unfair ruling, the greedy jews wanted even more land. After the British Empire left the region the jews activated Plan Dalet (Dec 1947) a plan in the works to purge the arabs from the area. They attacked from 3 sides and left the 4 side open for mass evacuations in a sort of plan to drive them out. When this failed the mass genocides of ethnic cleaning began...

As stated by a witness in the village of Deir Yassin, "As they burst into the village the Jewish soldiers sprayed the village houses with machine gun fire killing many of the inhabitants. The remaining villagers were gathered in one place and murdered in cold blood. Their bodies abused, while many of the women were raped and then killed."

Another witness 12 years old at time, "They took us out one after another, shot an old man when his daughter cried, she was shot too. Then called my brother Muhammad, and shot him in front of us, and when my mother yelled bending over him carrying my little sister Hudra in her hands, still breastfeeding her, they shot her too."

The grandson to a witness in the cleansing of Bassa, " My maternal grandmother was a teenager when Israeli soldiered entered the city of Bassa and ordered that all the young men be lined up and executed in front of the church. My grandmother watched as 2 of her brothers 21, and 22, one recently married were lined up and shot in front of her by the soldiers".

Percents of jews in Palestine over time:

1882 - 8% (living peacefully along arabs for last 300 years)
1918 - 8%
1931 - 18%
1946 - 29%
1948 - 80%

What is often described as a civil war between Arabs and Jews was nothing more than an ethnic cleansing where small militias tried to protect their villages from an overwhelming Army. The result was 500 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods burned to the ground. Thousands of Arabs were massacred and 700,000 were expelled from their homeland. The equivalent of 200 million Americans today.

Since 1946 Palestine has lost 75% of its original territory. With the horrors of what the Nazis did to the jews still living fresh in theirs minds, how can intelligent people expect Palestinians to forget what was done to them?

That's a great summary of why the Arabs hate Israel, but this battle for the moral high ground must end!

Both Israel and the Palestinians have engaged in so much slaughter of each other both have have lost any claim to moral superiority. The question at hand involves the stability of Gaza going forward. Instead it's page after page looking back to argue the moral superiority of whatever side one sympathizes with. If you can't get past that, you can't even begin to discuss another solution beside the other side being taken out of existence.

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They aren't going to miss any by going into Gaza with ground troops?

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The ground troops were going after the users of the tunnels.

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The cost of not certainly getting the tunnels through invasion is a stronger Hamas and another reason for people in Gaza to hate Israel

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I very much doubt Hamas is nearly as strong as they were a month ago.

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Taking away any semblance of self determination only makes people more desperate.

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Under subjugation to Hamas, the Strippers have not a glimmer of self determination. They chose their path and that led to this carnage.

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Also consider the difficulty of occupying a densely populated and hostile urban area. It's a very costly proposition that will result in more terrorism and death.

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Any proposition from Israel will be met with terrorism and death. You say the Palestinians have nothing to lose. How about Israel? What have they to lose? Their security? It's always being threatened.

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They will if it means they can live their lives without the cost of constant war. If you have nothing to lose and are filled with hate the violence is welcomed because you kill them to. When you're well fed, have a job, and a family you don't want extremist risking that. Some still will but the majority won't accept the risk of death and desteuction.

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The people of the Strip chose Hamas. They paid for that decision. They had the opportunity, and the dollars from America, to create a better life. If they had left Israel alone then they would not have faced war. They bear the responsibility for their actions.

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I argue the embargo and Israeli incursions only serve to cause more of a threat from extremist from both inside Gaza and abroad to Israel.

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Israel must stay on guard against the 200,000,000 Muslims who surround and hate the 6,000,000 Jews who live there. The threat to Israel is as extreme as it can be. When there are millions of people dedicated to wiping you from the face of the earth, you better damn well be as capable of hitting back hard as you can be.

One major defeat of Israel would bring cataclysm to the Middle East.

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Israel is a fairly wealthy nation

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Which is strange because it's the only land in the Middle East that has no oil

Having wealthy connections certainly don't hurt the process either.

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So it wasn't about tunnels. It was to attack Hamas.

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Both.

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Military? No. Support of the Gazans? Certainly. Their support was wavering in Gaza. The more moderate Fatah was going to get more influence in Gaza and possibly win elections if they were held. More like probably given how bad Hamas sucked at governing. The violence gave them a rallying cry. It set the progress the last year of peace brought years.

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If Hamas had succeeded in using their tunnels to slaughter many Israelis, do you think the "wavering" of their support from the Strippers would have continued?

Hamas has proved they weren't interested in governing, just using the Gaza Strip to battle Israel.

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They have no self determination because of the party they elected? Interesting.

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The Germans elected Hitler. I don't see your point.

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You're moralizing here, giving the blame to Gaza for Hamas. That's all well and good but our goal is to remove Hamas from leadership while not making the situation worse for an even more extremist group to take power.

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Damn right I'm moralizing. I support Israel with every fiber of my being.

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I argue let Hamas govern and fail.

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They have failed, on so many levels.

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The Palestinians have no trade and are trapped in Gaza. Israel is a fairly wealthy nation with the ability to trade around the world and have a military bought and paid for by the United States. They have plenty to lose and the means of defense if someone means to take it. Gaza has neither.

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They are trapped in Gaza because no one wants them. Not Egypt, not Syria, not Iran and not even Jordan which has a population that is 50% of Palestinian ethnicity.

They are being used by haters of Israel and those users don't give a crap if the Gaza Strip residents live or die.

I hate that I have to keep saying this: Israel has enemies that don't just want to defeat them but want to annihilate them. Conquest is not the strategy of Hamas and other groups. Total destruction is their goal. There are no gray areas here.

If Israel remains stronger than their enemies, they survive. If they become weaker, they die.

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If Israel hadn't arrested 400 Hamas members when Hamas as an organization had nothing to do with those teen deaths, we're not sitting here having this conversation.

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If those three teens had not been executed, we're not sitting here having this conversation.

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The United States wouldn't allow that to happen. Period. Israel isn't going anywhere as long as America is around and has our military might.

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You overestimate the control the U. S. has over a nation that is staring down its enemies on a daily basis.

The Jews are the most persecuted group of people in all of history. Their numbers have been winnowed down to less than 20 million worldwide.

In a way, we can say that evolution has been at play concerning the Jewish population. "Survival of the fittest" has given the world a population which is the most intelligent and most determined to survive. They have the knowledge and the wherewithal to take out a good portion of all humans, especially in the Middle East. Given their history of persecution, who can blame them?

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now we have the largest magma matrix there's ever been.

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My dick moved

It's always civil at least.

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Gratefully, Duke is one of those rare people who knows how to make his points without insulting people. I enjoy his discussions.

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I could say the same for you. Always civil in disagreement.