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re: A question about the school shooting today...
Posted on 2/15/18 at 10:10 am to thomasbrown_2007
Posted on 2/15/18 at 10:10 am to thomasbrown_2007
quote:
We as a society have to stop using this as a excuse. Whenever someone commits a crime, someone has to make it seem they have mental issues. These kids have to be held accountable.
I would not use it as an excuse, but someone with a particular set of mental health issues is a danger to not only himself but everyone around him.
While there were mass shootings or bombings back in the day they tended to be much more rare because we had insane asylums all over the country. Yes, some of them were very poorly run and needed to be reformed, but we responded by shutting down almost every facility out there.
It is hard now a days to get someone committed even when they are clearly a ticking time bomb. Or out of touch with reality. Its why we have so many homeless people today, a lot of them are mentally unstable and in the old days they'd be in a long term care facility. Now we just let them wander the streets.
I am not saying that mental health issues excuse a mass murderer. I'm saying we need to expand our mental health care and catch that mass murderer before he goes off on a killing spree. As of now we use our prisons for it. A huge majority of violent criminals have some major mental problems. I'd rather put them away before they commit a crime then wait until after they do so.
We can't leave insane people and their families in control of medicating these folks. The Sandy Hook shooter was prescribed a powerful anti-pyschotic but stopped taking it after three days. He didn't like how it made him feel and his mother supported his decision. Well we know how that turned out.
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Posted on 2/15/18 at 11:01 am to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
Actually, the kid could have been Baker Act'd years ago.
There's a true exercise in futility. I have no idea what about mental healthcare ran by the state of florida has done to inspire faith in its efficacy, but it's misguided af. I've picked up a friend less than 12 hours after a suicide attempt, in front of their kids. This isn't me signing for him, full blown released from a baker hold.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 11:29 am to MoarKilometers
The state of Florida would not release a minor from a Baker hold without a psychiatric evaluation.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 12:22 pm to Arksulli
quote:
While there were mass shootings or bombings back in the day they tended to be much more rare because we had insane asylums all over the country. Yes, some of them were very poorly run and needed to be reformed, but we responded by shutting down almost every facility out there.
I also think there are more mass shooters because the population has tripled in the last century. The percentage of crazy people with guns has not changed but their numbers certainly have.
With an increasing population, anonymity also increases. It's harder for people to know everyone in a community as it gets bigger and bigger. Crazy people can wander around without attracting as much attention as they would in a smaller town. Because of the impersonal nature of a large community, red flags for aberrant behavior are also dismissed more easily because there are simply so many of them.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 1:08 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
The state of Florida would not release a minor from a Baker hold without a psychiatric evaluation.
You think my buddy didn't have one? After stiching up both wrists he went on to the psych ward from the er, was evaluated, and discharged. Even evaluations that lead to diagnosis aren't auto disqualifiers for firearms. Lying during a psych eval about not wanting to harm yourself or others doesn't sound very difficult, even for someone unstable.
I wish the fbi knew about this kid for months, and did nothing...
Posted on 2/15/18 at 3:59 pm to MoarKilometers
quote:
Lying during a psych eval about not wanting to harm yourself or others doesn't sound very difficult, even for someone unstable.
Lying on a 4473 is impossible though, because you have to sign that you've sworn to tell the truth ?
Posted on 2/15/18 at 5:08 pm to Vols&Shaft83
I'm all for holding parents responsible, but...
Las Vegas: 58 dead, shooter was 64.
Orlando: 49 dead, shooter was 29.
Virginia Tech: 32 dead, shooter was 23.
Sandy Hook: 20 dead, shooter was 20.
Sutherland Springs: 26 dead, shooter was 26.
The Sandy Hook guy is the only one I'd remotely call a kid, and he murdered his mother before going on his shooting spree. So it's kind of tough to blame her.
Las Vegas: 58 dead, shooter was 64.
Orlando: 49 dead, shooter was 29.
Virginia Tech: 32 dead, shooter was 23.
Sandy Hook: 20 dead, shooter was 20.
Sutherland Springs: 26 dead, shooter was 26.
The Sandy Hook guy is the only one I'd remotely call a kid, and he murdered his mother before going on his shooting spree. So it's kind of tough to blame her.
Posted on 2/15/18 at 9:32 pm to finestfirst79
quote:
So it's kind of tough to blame her.
Her son lived with her and he had a long history of mental health issues. She kept a stock pile of guns and gave him access to them. Yeah she had zero blame.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 12:49 am to Jazzbo Depew
quote:
Lying on a 4473 is impossible though, because you have to sign that you've sworn to tell the truth ?
I had noticed after the change in question 11e sales didn't plummet in recreational and medical marijuana states. I figured something was amiss... never thought it could be lying.
If you've gone through the legal process of being adjudicated mentally unsound, that will be logged in fdle's system disqualifying you exactly like a felony or domestic violence conviction. Not a lot people get that far, especially if you "decide" to do it "voluntarily." Its like a free pass for being kinda crazy and keeping guns. As long as you volunteer seeking treatment and not court ordered, you can be crazy af and armed.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 1:46 am to BamaDude06
quote:
Yeah she had zero blame.
Of course she had some blame. What do you want to do? Kill her again?
Posted on 2/16/18 at 5:06 am to Kentucker
quote:
I also think there are more mass shooters because the population has tripled in the last century. The percentage of crazy people with guns has not changed but their numbers certainly have.
I’d say meds might have something to do with it as well. For a country with some of the most expensive prescriptions in the world we seem to have an unlimited budget on that end
Posted on 2/16/18 at 9:46 am to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
Apparently he and his brother were adopted at a young age by and elderly couple, he was still in high school and living with them. This was preventable.
Just like on the rant, you should know what you're talking about before you post.
Yes, he was adopted at an early age. His adoptive father died many years ago and his adoptive mother died in November. His mother called the police dozens of times since 2010 because the boy was fighting with his younger brother or with her. The police did nothing. He was looked at by a Psychologist and ruled that he was not a danger to himself or anyone else. He was over 18 when his mother died and the parents of a friend of his were kind enough to let him use a room in their house, but they were not his legal guardians. Even the FBI was called and did nothing, so I'm not sure what more people can do.
Now I do agree with you in many instances that the parents have long given up on discipline and just let their kids do whatever they want. But in this instance it appears the mom tried everything she could until her death...
This post was edited on 2/16/18 at 9:50 am
Posted on 2/16/18 at 10:36 am to thomasbrown_2007
quote:
We as a society have to stop using this as a excuse. Whenever someone commits a crime, someone has to make it seem they have mental issues. These kids have to be held accountable.
I never said not to hold the murdering a-hole accountable. I was just wondering if he was on drugs that many past mass murderers were also on.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 10:40 am to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
If they are his legal guardian, this fits the definition of negligence like a glove. Does it not?
He's already had be put into a behavioral school, has participated in animal mutilation and posted about it on social media, and was reported as having "terrible emotional problems", yet he's allowed to own lethal weapons in their home?
At no did they think, "maybe we should invest in some trauma counseling or behavioral therapy or at the very least hold off on allowing him to play with guns in our home until we are sure he's not a fricking lunatic"?
I learned how to use firearms when I was 10, but I can guarantee you that if I ever got caught posting morbid shite on the internet or fricked around at school enough to warrant being placed in special ed classes, or threatened ANYONE with a gun, I would have had my guns taken away from me permanently and my stepdad would have kicked my arse from one end of the house to the other. Then he would have called my dad and my uncles to fly down to Sarasota just to repeat the kicking of my arse from one end of the house to the other.
Warning signs were EVERYWHERE with this kid. EVERYWHERE. Same thing with the Columbine shooters, the kid at Virginia tech, Sandy Hook, Dylan Roof, etc.
I weep for the families of the victims, this did not have to happen.
The media is gonna blame guns, or rap music, or Marilyn Manson, or video games, or bullying, but they never take a look at the people who had more power to prevent these tragedies than anyone else besides the shooters themselves, the parents/guardians.
I guarantee if you start holding the parents accountable, and administer harsh enough punishments for negligence, they will start watching their kids like a hawk.
I agree with all of this, as well as the questions asked that have gone largely unanswered by anyone who is weighing in on this from a national perspective. I was just laying out the facts as had been reported.
And to correct myself, apparently his mother died last year.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 5:34 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
Fragile X syndrome (FXS) is a genetic disorder. Symptoms often include mild to moderate intellectual disability. Physical features may include a long and narrow face, large ears, flexible fingers, and large testicles. - Wiki
Posted on 2/16/18 at 8:04 pm to Kentucker
Indeed. At some point we have to realize that certain people, with a rare but detectable, mental profile are a danger.
We can't rely on parents to get this right. Because they will always default to "Yes he has issues but he's a good kid... you just need to..."
And then they are dead and their child is dead and quite a few others are dead.
You cannot hope to raise, with just sheer good nature, a sociopathic child and hope they turn out for the best. At some point in time you need massive psychiatric help and major drug intervention.
Be you a Republican or a Democrat, or a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party... we need to band together as a society and remove these people from the general population. Yes, give them a good life, but a controlled life where they don't cause harm.
We can't rely on parents to get this right. Because they will always default to "Yes he has issues but he's a good kid... you just need to..."
And then they are dead and their child is dead and quite a few others are dead.
You cannot hope to raise, with just sheer good nature, a sociopathic child and hope they turn out for the best. At some point in time you need massive psychiatric help and major drug intervention.
Be you a Republican or a Democrat, or a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party... we need to band together as a society and remove these people from the general population. Yes, give them a good life, but a controlled life where they don't cause harm.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 8:54 pm to Arksulli
quote:
Be you a Republican or a Democrat, or a member of the Monster Raving Loony Party... we need to band together as a society and remove these people from the general population. Yes, give them a good life, but a controlled life where they don't cause harm.
Exactly. I'm convinced that the great majority of mass shooters are genetically different and therefore identifiable. If we want to enjoy the great freedoms of liberal gun laws, we absolutely must keep firearms out of the hands of people like Nikolas Cruz.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 9:00 pm to Vols&Shaft83
When will we address the real issue here?
America is simply reaping what it began sowing 50 or so years ago. Transitioning from a Christian society to a secular one has its consequences.
Secularization has brought us: abortion on demand, the destruction of the nuclear family, the glorification of greed, fame, money, sexual deviancy, fornication, adultery, hubris,etc.
Sanctity for life, the value of life, has been devalued to the point that it's worthless.
"Do as thou wilt," is all the rage.
Ya gets what ya pays for.
America is simply reaping what it began sowing 50 or so years ago. Transitioning from a Christian society to a secular one has its consequences.
Secularization has brought us: abortion on demand, the destruction of the nuclear family, the glorification of greed, fame, money, sexual deviancy, fornication, adultery, hubris,etc.
Sanctity for life, the value of life, has been devalued to the point that it's worthless.
"Do as thou wilt," is all the rage.
Ya gets what ya pays for.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 9:01 pm to Arksulli
Making it more difficult to get a weapon, I don't think, is going to fix anything.
For me, it needs to be a complete overhaul on our mental health system which is behind many countries. Americans are pretty much thrown to the wolves regarding this, and even growing up with problems with depression myself -- had my mother and father not been in the military I don't know if they would have been able to get me the help I needed to be here today.
I've also spoken intensely about a certain gun shop in the south that skirted those laws (easily) to do things that were blatantly illegal that eventually got them arrested. However, for about six years they sold firearms and controlled accessories illegally with little problem.
If we're going to fix anything, it needs to be getting people real, affordable help that doesn't rely on prescription drugs. Behavioral Therapy or bust.
For me, it needs to be a complete overhaul on our mental health system which is behind many countries. Americans are pretty much thrown to the wolves regarding this, and even growing up with problems with depression myself -- had my mother and father not been in the military I don't know if they would have been able to get me the help I needed to be here today.
I've also spoken intensely about a certain gun shop in the south that skirted those laws (easily) to do things that were blatantly illegal that eventually got them arrested. However, for about six years they sold firearms and controlled accessories illegally with little problem.
If we're going to fix anything, it needs to be getting people real, affordable help that doesn't rely on prescription drugs. Behavioral Therapy or bust.
Posted on 2/16/18 at 9:07 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:
Transitioning from a Christian society to a secular one has its consequences.
America is a secular society like North Korea is a Democratic Republic. Our courts have Bibles to swear on, we've never had a President who wasn't Christian. Secular just means that you don't believe in something religious, Humanism is just as humane as Christianity (even more so, in some regards).
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