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re: 2023 Recruiting
Posted on 1/30/23 at 9:25 am to metafour
Posted on 1/30/23 at 9:25 am to metafour
quote:
It's all important. However, there is massive confirmation bias: the teams that recruit the best, also generally have the best coaches and supporting staffs. So those elite recruits are simultaneously also being coached and developed properly. It's not like Georgia or Ohio State or Bama are signing 5-stars every year, but somehow they can't attract legitimately good coaches.
This is the correct answer
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Posted on 1/30/23 at 9:29 am to metafour
With the increase in player movement, there are just more opportunities for good recruiting coaches to do their thing.
Posted on 1/30/23 at 10:52 am to metafour
quote:
It's all important.
Agreed. I just think it's recruiting is more important. I think good players can overcome average coaching. I do not think the inverse is true to win at an elite level.
Posted on 1/30/23 at 10:57 am to RandySavage
We get into this discussion every year. Answer is still the same.
Gonna need to do both at a high level to sustain a championship caliber program. Might get by with a good season here and there without one of them but that’s probably it
Gonna need to do both at a high level to sustain a championship caliber program. Might get by with a good season here and there without one of them but that’s probably it
This post was edited on 1/30/23 at 10:58 am
Posted on 1/30/23 at 10:58 am to pdfield34
These days, zero coaches are going to have a technical advantage. Not the case when Spurier came into the league or when Pat Dye hired Pat Sullivan, or even when Urban Meyer came in with the spread. Recruiting and talent is the difference these days.
Posted on 1/30/23 at 11:00 am to RandySavage
quote:
think good players can overcome average coaching.
This guy gets fired just the same (if not quicker).
Posted on 1/30/23 at 12:07 pm to lowspark12
quote:
This guy gets fired just the same (if not quicker).
Agree 100%. We've been down this road with Chizik and Gus, LSU has been through the same recently. Richt couldn't maximize his talent.
There is much more than accumulating talent and coaching a great game plan. Roster management is HUGE (hello Gus) as well as individual development and team culture. To pit coaching vs talent is too simplistic.
Posted on 1/30/23 at 4:50 pm to pdfield34
Elite Recruiting / talent is way more important than anything else and it's not even close. If AU were to have top 5 classes (balanced by position) the next 3-5 years, would anyone believe that we would not be competing for and winning championships? You may have to change a coach, or 2 or 3 or 4 but recruiting is the main hurdle.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 6:12 am to CorchJay
His old man John was a hard arse dickhead at Meadowview and we used to light their arse up every year in the late 70's.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 8:43 am to pdfield34
metafor already nailed it.
It requires both elite recruiting and coaching. One needs the other for sustained success. You’re not going to get elite recruiting without the coaches to develop them and coach them up.
As metafor said, look at the elite programs that continually go to the playoffs. Really good coaching with elite talent. They go hand in hand and that’s the facts.
It requires both elite recruiting and coaching. One needs the other for sustained success. You’re not going to get elite recruiting without the coaches to develop them and coach them up.
As metafor said, look at the elite programs that continually go to the playoffs. Really good coaching with elite talent. They go hand in hand and that’s the facts.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 9:14 am to RockyMtnTigerWDE
quote:As
metafor already nailed it.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 10:58 am to AUDevil
quote:
Richt couldn't maximize his talent.
I think, as Kirby has proven, Richt's issue was he didn't get the talent available to him at UGA. He recruited well, but not elite.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 11:01 am to RockyMtnTigerWDE
quote:
It requires both elite recruiting and coaching
Nobody is arguing it's not best to have both. The discussion is if you can only have one which is more important.
The A&M example is flimsy because their one truly elite class were only true freshmen last year. That said, they definitely are underachieving because they still had solid recruiting in the years prior.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 11:10 am to RandySavage
quote:
The A&M example is flimsy because their one truly elite class were only true freshmen last year. That said, they definitely are underachieving because they still had solid recruiting in the years prior.
Using 247 Composite they had 4 top 10 classes. Under performed any way you look at it.
2019 (4th)
2020 (6th)
2021 (8th)
2022 (1st)
This post was edited on 1/31/23 at 11:11 am
Posted on 1/31/23 at 11:29 am to RandySavage
Fresh water/ diamonds. both good to have, one is at a premium (by a wide margin).
We are talking the level and consistency of UGA, UA, and OSU. Spot on about Richt and not getting elite talent.
Plenty of Saban assistants / "developers" have gone on to be not great at all (even more so than a lack of talent would suggest). The one that has succeeded, yes, "elite talent" is the difference.
We are talking the level and consistency of UGA, UA, and OSU. Spot on about Richt and not getting elite talent.
Plenty of Saban assistants / "developers" have gone on to be not great at all (even more so than a lack of talent would suggest). The one that has succeeded, yes, "elite talent" is the difference.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 12:20 pm to pdfield34
quote:
Plenty of Saban assistants / "developers" have gone on to be not great at all (even more so than a lack of talent would suggest). The one that has succeeded, yes, "elite talent" is the difference
Not everyone is cut out to be a head coach though. We see that all the time with guys that are great position coaches or coordinators - Muschamp, Mullen, Dan Quinn in the NFL to name a few.
To be a successful head coach takes a much wider skill set than a coordinator or position coach and very few have that. You can still be a great coach, in terms of developing players at a micro level, but to be a great head coach is something else entirely. Plenty of guys that have failed as a head coach have gone back and had successful coordinator roles because they can focus on what they do best.
Look at Urban Meyer at Utah. He was beating elite teams without elite talent. He got to Florida and was able to put recruiting and his coaching ability together and look what happened.
Dabo is probably another example. He didn't start with elite players, but guys quickly saw he was an elite head coach and that really jumpstarted their recruiting to get to the elite level. He's been very hesitant to keep up with how recruiting has changed in the portal/NIL era, so that may eventually bite him.
You have to have both to be successful and it's really a snowball effect for someone like Smart or Saban. Once the two converge, it's hard to stop that ball rolling down the hill.
I can only hope Freeze finds some of that success.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 1:00 pm to pdfield34
quote:
Plenty of Saban assistants / "developers" have gone on to be not great at all (even more so than a lack of talent would suggest). The one that has succeeded, yes, "elite talent" is the difference.
Actually, more modern data analysis shows that Alabama is in fact the perfect example that it's NOT just "elite talent".
Dave Bartoo has basically discovered that every time that Saban/Bama hasn't won or competed for the national title, they have had a poorly graded OC, DC, or both (by Bartoo's coaching metrics). And "graded" means their actual ability to scheme/perform actual coaching/play calling duties.
This past season for them is yet another example of this as both O'Brien and Golding were KNOWN to be poorly graded hires by Saban. And what happened? Despite the fact that they actually have a Heisman winning QB (the most important piece on the field), they actually "under performed". How does Alabama with a Heisman QB lose to LSU with a first year HC and a worse QB?
Turns out that Saban caught on, and both O'Brien and Golding are being replaced. Their talent level has been pretty damn consistent during his time there; but his assistants and coordinators have not. Sometimes, he makes great hires and they win everything. Other times, he whiffs and they end up winning 10+ due to talent, but don't compete for the title.
If you look at Tulane beating USC or Oregon State beating Oregon, actual coaching still matters and always will matter. As I said before, the confirmation bias is that the teams with the most talent also generally have better coaches and coordinators than everyone else too. But you can learn a lot from a team like Alabama which consistently has elite talent, but the coaching isn't always elite. When their coaching is "down", it pretty much entirely correlates with their seasons wherein they aren't competing or playing for the title.
This post was edited on 1/31/23 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 1/31/23 at 1:05 pm to metafour
And yes, Texas A&M is the perfect counter-example as well. Three-four straight ~Top 8 recruiting classes and it resulted in 5 wins this past season, including losing to us - a team with much less talent that was playing with a bandaid interim coaching staff.
That's entirely coaching, or lack thereof. And surprise surprise, Jimbo has one of the absolute worst coaching effect grades in the entire country (it might be the worst).
That's entirely coaching, or lack thereof. And surprise surprise, Jimbo has one of the absolute worst coaching effect grades in the entire country (it might be the worst).
This post was edited on 1/31/23 at 1:06 pm
Posted on 1/31/23 at 1:44 pm to RandySavage
quote:
Nobody is arguing it's not best to have both. The discussion is if you can only have one which is more important.
If the discussion is if you can only pick one you don’t really want an elite program at Auburn. Our discussion should be, how can we have both?
Silly discussion otherwise and one that happens annually. We need both and that’s the fact.
Posted on 1/31/23 at 1:56 pm to RockyMtnTigerWDE
There is great recruiting and there is uga bama great recruiting. If you are recruiting at their level consistently you would really have to find away to screw it up. UGa’s second string may have been more talented than our first string last year..
This post was edited on 1/31/23 at 1:57 pm
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