Started By
Message
re: Protests blowing up in Downtown Birmingham
Posted on 6/8/20 at 9:54 am to imjustafatkid
Posted on 6/8/20 at 9:54 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
Mostly because intervening in these types of transactions takes expensive undercover work that simply doesn't return the kind of convictions that would justify such expenditures.
I think it's just a matter of time till undercover investigators provide the evidence to bust Antifa as organized anarchists.
1
Posted on 6/8/20 at 9:55 am to BLG
quote:If you're talking about a riot, then there's not going to be many peaceful people at all, regardless of color. But those first few nights, there were also a ton of peaceful protests with diverse crowds.
Talking about the first few nights of riots in the major cities, New York, Los Angeles, and Minneapolis getting the most coverage.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 9:59 am to BLG
quote:
I think it's just a matter of time till undercover investigators provide the evidence to bust Antifa as organized anarchists.
I agree with you there. I was simply talking about low-level drug deals. Spending time and money to get some young kid on a misdemeanor that's likely a first offense and ends up being deferred and dismissed is hard to push off as anything more than a waste of money.
ETA: Project Veritas inflitrated antifa and is putting out videos about it.
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 10:00 am
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:01 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
Mostly because intervening in these types of transactions takes expensive undercover work that simply doesn't return the kind of convictions that would justify such expenditures.
Pretty much. Busting some dude slinging crack or meth on a street corner only requires them to be at the right place at the right time, thus the increased police presence in areas where those transactions are commonplace.
There's also the fact that a ton of the drug use in suburbia is prescription drugs, which can legally be obtained from the local Dr. Feelgood. The police can't do much about that unless the doctor starts getting sloppy and allowing his or her staff to write the prescriptions for expediency purposes. Even then they'd have to go to a lot of trouble to actually investigate it.
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 10:02 am
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:02 am to pvilleguru
quote:
If you're talking about a riot, then there's not going to be many peaceful people at all
I specifically said riots. In fact, more than once I have made the very important distinction between the protests and riots.
Those first few days, yes, there were plenty of peaceful protests, but by nightfall, there was damn little.
I haven't been watching much news of it the last few days, but from what I have read, there is becoming more protest and less destruction. I hope that is true. It's a longer road, but it'll get us there, whereas destruction and chaos will not.
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 10:04 am
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:08 am to BLG
quote:
I haven't been watching much news of it the last few days, but from what I have read, there is becoming more protest and less destruction. I hope that is true. It's a longer road, but it'll get us there, whereas destruction and chaos will not.
The antifa crowd slinked into the shadows in most areas once they realized that crossing state lines to instigate is a federal crime. They're used to operating in cities where the local government doesn't have the spine (or the support) to charge them.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:12 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
The antifa crowd slinked into the shadows in most areas once they realized that crossing state lines to instigate is a federal crime. They're used to operating in cities where the local government doesn't have the spine (or the support) to charge them.
I did some some video of legitimate protestors trying to stop antifa types from destroying and burning property. I hope that becomes more the case than not. As noted, the anarchy actually undermines the cause of the protestors, and some protest organizers know that.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:18 am to JustGetItRight
quote:
Benson relates a case study in government negligence where three female roommates were attacked in their apartment. Two girls upstairs made repeated calls to police while the third roommate was beaten and raped by several men. When her screams stopped the two roommates thought the police must have arrived. They went downstairs where for the next fourteen hours they too were raped, robbed, and beaten. Government courts absolved the police of any liability.
quote:
Further, David Rasmussen and Bruce Benson's 1994 book, The Economic Anatomy of a Drug War shows that the modern drug war and all of its draconian policies actually increased property and violent crimes committed on the American public and made us less safe.
quote:
You might be surprised to know, for example, that more disputes are resolved in private courts than in government courts, that there are more private security guards than police, and that private companies have built their own prisons without a government contract.
LINK
quote:
Consider, for example, the widely held idea that drug use causes crime. Statistics show that in 35 cities monitored by the U.S. Department of Justice in 2000, at least 50 percent of adult men arrested for crimes tested positive for drugs. That’s enough to frighten the typical citizen into supporting the drug war. After all, who wants more crime? But Miron points out that those statistics don’t show that drug usage causes criminal behavior or that the arrestees were under the influence of drugs at the time of the crime. “The methodology used in these analyses would also demonstrate that consumption of fast food or wearing blue jeans causes criminal behavior,” Miron observes with appropriate sarcasm.
LINK /
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:20 am to RollTide4Ever
What is it that you think those articles prove?
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:27 am to imjustafatkid
That the way America approaches crime is messed up and very inefficient, like almost everything else in America.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:39 am to The Spleen
quote:
Would crime statistics in suburban and wealthy areas increase if they were policed more heavily? POssibly, especially if we threw in white collar crime into that mix.
I guess I go back to the multiple studies done that show drug use across all races and socioeconomic classes is about the same, yet drug related arrests skew heavily towards poor and black areas. And those statistics are used to justify the heavier police presence.
There would be a small increase but it wouldn't be huge. When you ride through the upscale neighborhood you don't see people standing on the corner at midnight smoking weed or getting into mischief. It's inside, out of sight because if the neighbors do see it they call the cops.
People aren't generally scared of crimes that don't harm their physical safety (white collar) and for that same reason practically no local resources are devoted to them. Having said that, when the residents see it happening in better neighborhoods they call the cops. When someone there figures out that Joe the accountant is skimming, they call the cops. When ANY crime happens and is detected by the residents of higher (and really even middle) class neighborhoods those people call the cops. Known crimes don't go unreported.
So what you're down to are undetected white collar crime and ancillary stuff like additional DUIs. Patrol cars can't detect white collar crime and even if they could there aren't enough undetected white collar crimes and extra DUI arrests to come close to the things like vehicle burglaries and other property crimes that go on daily in a city like Montgomery. Further, if you tripled the patrols in those neighborhoods you'd cancel out the extra DUIs because you'd cut down on the property crimes.
Lastly, you can't ignore that biggest stat that can't be hidden - murder. People don't complain to their mayor and the city council or pack up the kids and move away when Joe the accountant steals from his clients. They do that when there have been 6 murders and 15 shootings since May 25th (actual numbers for Montgomery). You devote your resources to those things that scare and physically harm your citizenry and the numbers don't lie about where those crimes are happening and who is committing them.
Objective facts aren't racist, they're simply facts. I've said earlier in this thread that the discussion that must be had is what we do to change those objective facts.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 10:51 am to BLG
quote:
I haven't been watching much news of it the last few days, but from what I have read, there is becoming more protest and less destruction. I hope that is true. It's a longer road, but it'll get us there, whereas destruction and chaos will not.
I've watched extensive footage most every night. The rioting and looting and property destruction have all significantly decreased since a week ago today. Not to say it isn't still occurring in some cities, but it seems to be very isolated.
I didn't watch much this weekend, so not sure if there was any this weekend.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:01 am to The Spleen
quote:
92 shot, 27 dead— the most violent weekend so far this year in Chicago
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:17 am to Roll Tide Ravens
This post is not directed toward Roll Tide Ravens or any other specific person.
Had Floyd been white instead of black and had the officer with his knee on the neck been black instead of white...would there have been any protests in Birmingham? If the location of the murder been closer to Birmingham than Minneapolis, would that have made any difference? If Obama had been the president instead of Trump, would there have been such an uproar?
Joseph Hutcheson was murdered in Dallas, TX (about 400 miles closer to Birmingham)during the Obama administration (2015). The officer with his knee on the neck was black. Hutcheson was white. Three of the 5 other officers on the scene were also black. The murder was caught on tape.
There was no national media frenzy. There were no protests in Birmingham (or scattered around the rest of the nation). There were no riots.
The murderous actions of both officers were unacceptable and criminal. The actions of the other officers in both cases were unacceptable and criminal. All people across this country should be furious about the police brutality and that the brutality rose to the level of murder in both cases.
Why did one event gain national attention and outrage but the other did not?
Media and political manipulation with a purpose! The opportunistic rioting and looting destroys the effectiveness of the protests. The protests are reasonable and would be far more effective if the opportunistic aspects were not piled on top to dilute the attention from the evil of what happened in Minneapolis and similar events of brutality in other areas.
Had Floyd been white instead of black and had the officer with his knee on the neck been black instead of white...would there have been any protests in Birmingham? If the location of the murder been closer to Birmingham than Minneapolis, would that have made any difference? If Obama had been the president instead of Trump, would there have been such an uproar?
Joseph Hutcheson was murdered in Dallas, TX (about 400 miles closer to Birmingham)during the Obama administration (2015). The officer with his knee on the neck was black. Hutcheson was white. Three of the 5 other officers on the scene were also black. The murder was caught on tape.
There was no national media frenzy. There were no protests in Birmingham (or scattered around the rest of the nation). There were no riots.
The murderous actions of both officers were unacceptable and criminal. The actions of the other officers in both cases were unacceptable and criminal. All people across this country should be furious about the police brutality and that the brutality rose to the level of murder in both cases.
Why did one event gain national attention and outrage but the other did not?
Media and political manipulation with a purpose! The opportunistic rioting and looting destroys the effectiveness of the protests. The protests are reasonable and would be far more effective if the opportunistic aspects were not piled on top to dilute the attention from the evil of what happened in Minneapolis and similar events of brutality in other areas.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:27 am to JustGetItRight
quote:
There would be a small increase but it wouldn't be huge. When you ride through the upscale neighborhood you don't see people standing on the corner at midnight smoking weed or getting into mischief. It's inside, out of sight because if the neighbors do see it they call the cops.
I would agree with that, which is why I included white collar crime. If white collar crime was as vigorously pursued as other crimes, I do think there would be a noticeable increase. It wouldn't completely close the gap. But yeah, white collar crime takes a lot of resources to investigate, prosecute, and get convictions for, so most police departments choose to take the path of least resistance.
quote:
When ANY crime happens and is detected by the residents of higher (and really even middle) class neighborhoods those people call the cops. Known crimes don't go unreported.
Well, that depends entirely on the crime. Suburban people aren't reporting each other to the police for the rampant DUIs in the suburbs every weekend. CPA firms aren't turning in clients that try to defraud the tax system, they usually jsut fire them as clients and let someone else deal with the problem.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:28 am to RollTide4Ever
quote:
Benson relates a case study in government negligence where three female roommates were attacked in their apartment. Two girls upstairs made repeated calls to police while the third roommate was beaten and raped by several men. When her screams stopped the two roommates thought the police must have arrived. They went downstairs where for the next fourteen hours they too were raped, robbed, and beaten. Government courts absolved the police of any liability.
quote:
You might be surprised to know, for example, that more disputes are resolved in private courts than in government courts, that there are more private security guards than police, and that private companies have built their own prisons without a government contract.
Both of these appear to support the idea that there are TOO FEW police. In the first one, the police didn't get there fast enough. I'd like to see the actual case because government entities are not immune in the case of gross negligence.
In the second, the fact that people have to hire private security again indicates there aren't enough real law enforcement. As far as the private prisons go, is that something you really, truly want? A private company with the ability to arrest and imprison you? I'm sure that will end well. They'd have to answer to the courts? Well who's going to enforce those court mandates? The police? Yeah, about them.....
Not sure why the war on drugs comes in, but since you brought it up, let's talk Portugal. They decriminalized possession of pretty much everything in 2001. The crime rate was 1 per 100,000 in 2001 and it's stayed around that same number ever since. They had 12,994 people in prison in the year 2000, they had 12,900 in prison in 2018. Portugal's murder rate in 2000 was 1.2 per 100,000 in 2000 and it has averaged around that same number in the 20 years since.
Interestingly, HIV cases have dropped tremendously but accidental overdose deaths have increased dramatically.
Point being, the arguments that decriminalizing drugs at the user level hasn't done one thing to change the crime situation in Portugal. You'd see exactly the same thing here in the US. Those people getting picked up for drugs today would (just as they are in Portugal) simply get arrested and imprisoned for something else.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:32 am to The Spleen
quote:
Well, that depends entirely on the crime. Suburban people aren't reporting each other to the police for the rampant DUIs in the suburbs every weekend. CPA firms aren't turning in clients that try to defraud the tax system, they usually jsut fire them as clients and let someone else deal with the problem.
Buy a scanner and listen to your local PD. At least around here the local department gets sent on possible 10-55 (drunk drivers) multiple times every weekend. They get called in all the time.
As far as CPAs go, I don't know. Honest question, do they have a duty to report? I know at the government auditing level they do - if they find a crime they're supposed to report it. That's how teachers and other public officials get caught. If they don't, it needs to be added to their licensing requirements. If me as a lowly EMT has a legal obligation to report abuse and gunshots and highly paid CPA can report detected fraud.
Edited to add - even if local PDs had the time, expertise, and resources to investigate white collar what they'd still lack is probable cause. Somebody gets assaulted, robbed, etc you've got immediate proof of a crime. No assumptions involved. Someone shot the guy.
Not so easy with white collar. Joe just bought a lakehouse isn't probable cause, it is Joe buying a lake house. You think Joe did it by skimming from clients? What evidence are you going to use for that search warrant to see his books? There isn't any because you don't even have a complainant.
This post was edited on 6/8/20 at 11:38 am
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:33 am to Tw1st3d
quote:
Why did one event gain national attention and outrage but the other did not?
Media and political manipulation with a purpose! The opportunistic rioting and looting destroys the effectiveness of the protests. The protests are reasonable and would be far more effective if the opportunistic aspects were not piled on top to dilute the attention from the evil of what happened in Minneapolis and similar events of brutality in other areas.
This is why this whole series of events is so odd to me. Studies of police deaths largely show that there is no racial bias with regard to the use of deadly force by police. However, it is these, and only these, types of events that trigger these mass racial protests.
It would be more logical to follow these events with a wide-ranging national examination of policing in America. Instead, it immediately devolves into a cacophany of racial animus and self-loathing.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:35 am to Tw1st3d
quote:
All people across this country should be furious about the police brutality and that the brutality rose to the level of murder in both cases.
They are. While the movement is titled Black Lives Matter, the speakers at every protest I've watched have made it a point to mention white people have also been unjustly killed by police. And if the reformation goals they seek are attained, it will also benefit white people.
Posted on 6/8/20 at 11:44 am to The Spleen
quote:
They are. While the movement is titled Black Lives Matter, the speakers at every protest I've watched have made it a point to mention white people have also been unjustly killed by police. And if the reformation goals they seek are attained, it will also benefit white people.
But the whole point was that the issue gets no attention unless it is a black person killed by a white cop. Why is that the case if the issue, as you claim, is policing in general?
Page 34 of 40
Latest Alabama News
Popular
Back to top
Follow SECRant for SEC Football News