re: Jesus is so real guys!! Merry Christmas!!!

Sorry to everyone if I rained on any positive spirit in this thread. Merry Christmas, Jesus is real, and prayer certainly works.

I just get worked up at that level of ignorance that paints us Christians in such a horrible light. It's possible to be both a Christian believer and have an informed, accurate understanding of science.

Roll Tide.

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As a learned Christian who majored in Anthropology and minored in Chemistry before graduate school in the medicinal arts, there's not one aspect of Christianity or Evolution that are at odds with one another

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I disagree.

I believe that for the sacrifice of Christ to have any real meaning that the suffering of Man (including death) must have been self-inflicted. In other words, Man originally should have had all that is to be attained through faith in Christ (Heaven) but lost it through sin. However, when evolution is considered it is clear that Man did not bring death into this world. It was waiting for us.

Theologically speaking, I don't think evolution and Christianity are compatible.

The entirety of science and reason tells us that big E evolution is a laughable myth. The fact that people still believe in it is a statement to the pox of unthinking blind faith that people have put into an oft-repeated lie. Little e evolution, I.e., variations within a kind, such as k9s is demonstrably true. But, to extrapolate from-goo-to-you-through-the-zoo from it is the definition of logical fallacy. Simple science has shown Evolution to be a myth, only kept alive by a self-anointed “elite” who pat each other on the back for believing it.

Luke, it sounds like God did more than meet you half way, brother. He watched over and preserved you while you were knee deep in drugs. You know, just as well as I did when I got saved, that you had been very rebellious against God and deserved not to have life and health but instead for Him to have cut you off years before and sent you to hell. But, God was gracious and merciful to you in spite of yourself and He revealed to you who He is and who you are - a sinner. That’s the incredible goodness of God.

I would like to give you some Scripture to begin meditating on and memorizing if that would be okay.

Romans 3:23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And are justified by His grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 4:7-8 Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.

Romans 8:1-2 Ther is therefore now no condemnation for hose who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free n Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Romans 5:8 God shows His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and by His wounds we are healed.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Lamentations 3:22-23 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.

If you are in need of a place to worship and grow, let me know what area you live in and I will help get you involved in a good church in your area.

Blessings

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I believe that for the sacrifice of Christ to have any real meaning that the suffering of Man (including death) must have been self-inflicted.

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I do not agree with this statement at all. Christ's "Saviorness" doesn't hinge on Man having done it to himself, and I see no Biblical reason for believing such. Man's righteousness can be "filthy rags" for any reason at all. Man was never deity, and was always "man", prior to the fall. We have always been who we've always been.

On this topic, this is the problem I have: The earth's physical makeup and its age can be tested. The half-life of radio-isotopes can date most things, and it's simply a fact that the earth has existed for 4.5 billion years or so, life in some form has existed for 3.7 billion or little more, and humans indistinguishable from us have existed for more than 100,000 years.

Furthermore, natural selection, i.e. evolution, is simply the survival of the fittest, with those "fittest" having more offspring, thereby slowly changing the gene pool and therefore the organisms themselves. These are facts, supported by mountains of data, mountains of data from many different educational disciplines.

And you want to say that all of these mountains of facts are "not true" based on your interpretation of some of the scripture written thousand of years ago, written in half-poetic form, and definitely edited over the millenia since written? Give me a break.

There's no insult to man or God that humans have a common biological ancestor with chimpanzees, or even alligators. As a matter of fact, it makes the story of creation all the more grandiose. God separated an animal apart and made that dude special - man. Gave him a soul/spirit and loved him special. That's a perfectly good explanation that breaks no Biblical tenets. Why must some Christians pursue an explanation for life that doesn't agree with the universe you live in and that you say God himself created?

Granted, if you want to get into a hybrid divine intervention/evolution idea, I'm all for that. But just bald-facedly saying no living beings have changed over time is just nonsense.

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I believe that for the sacrifice of Christ to have any real meaning

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One more time on this, I gotta wholeheartedly disagree. If I'm stuck in a huge hole and gonna die, my rescue and my opinion of the rescuer won't change if it's my fault I'm in the hole or not. I'm just in a hole and gonna die. Why ain't important anymore. I'm just real thankful to the one guy who got me out - cause I was screwed without that dude.

Now, if you want to completely ignore mountains of tangible evidence because you've talked yourself into some complicated theological hogwash, have at it - but that's my whole problem with some Christians. God gave us the gift of intelligence and yet many throw this gift in the garbage and spit on it.

My God encourages us to ask, "Why?" regarding our universe. If your God doesn't, then that's your deal.

But FYI, I believe the Adam and Eve story to be allegorical, not literal, and I do not believe the entire earth flooded with Noah. However, a massive local flood of Noah's region is supported by archaeological evidence, and the entire "world" of the author would have been flooded, hence his use of the word "world" or whatever. It's literally not possible that Noah and his family got 2 of every animal ON EARTH on one boat. Just literally not possible. Could he have gotten 2 of every meaningful animal from his region on one really massive boat? I don't see why not.

I just wish folks would read the Bible a) with some sense, and realize that b) it's not all literally true. Some things are figuratively true. I also wish some folks would understand that there's a different between the "word of God" and the word of Paul, John, or Moses.

The Bible is straight awesome and everyone needs to read it and bring it into their heart meaningfully, but how which books were chosen as canon and which weren't is a long and twisted story. Furthermore, the books were very much edited over time. These are also facts.

I'd encourage everyone to read the Bible and use it to find and walk with the Lord. But don't pidgeon-hole who God is because of a great, but flawed, book. The Bible is collection of stories of God's people, and some of God's Word is contained within. But the Bible in it's entirety is not "God's Word". If you believe it is, you're simply believing that Athanasius in 367 AD and the members of the Council of Trent in the 16th century were without flaw or mistake in choosing the part of Christian canon that was "God's Word" and perfectly eliminating the part that wasn't, and you're also choosing to believe that these words were never edited from their original form.

Sorry, all these men were just as flawed as you and me, and the books were definitely edited over time. Mountains of evidence support it.

I know many here will disagree, and some will call my words heresy, but I don't care. I've spoken with God/Jesus himself enough to know I ain't headed down a wrong path.

Jesus said love God and love your neighbor. Getting way outside that and heading so far down a theological rabbit hole that you say bones in the ground aren't real, and I think you've lost your way.

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But, to extrapolate from-goo-to-you-through-the-zoo from it is the definition of logical fallacy. Simple science has shown Evolution to be a myth, only kept alive by a self-anointed “elite” who pat each other on the back for believing it.

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I agree that going from the primordial ooze to now regarding the evolution of life, and doing it without divine intervention or divine design is not likely. However, there's no aspect of science and no aspect of intelligent thought that supports the earth being 7,000 years old or dinosaurs not existing. It's also ridiculous for some Christians to think these things stand against the Christian God.

The earth has been here for 4.5 billion years, and life evolved over that time. And God was behind it all. Saying God was a magician who poofed it all into existence 7,000 years ago...is not tantamount to saying 2+2=5, and not even tantamount to saying 2+2=purple. It's tantamount to saying 2 is not real.

I have no problem with dinosaurs. They are plainly evident in the fossil record. However, the fossil record shows zero evidence of envy meaningful evolutionary changes. On the contrary, the fossil record shows what folks call a “Cambrian explosion”. In other words, there is a sudden appearance of organisms in fully formed conditions. There, quite simply, are no credible transitional fossils. Again, I have no problem with little e evolution, I.e., survival of the fittest. However, iSOTF shows simple pre-existing variations prevailing in certain circumstances. The black pepper moths existed prior to the introduction of soot to the trees in industrial England. They did not suddenly appear because of soot. Look at it this way, we get more birds from animals of the bird kind. They will differ in colors, beak size, even sizes within limitations. However, we never get a cat coming from a bird. The same holds true across the board for other kinds of animals.

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However, the fossil record shows zero evidence of envy meaningful evolutionary changes.

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The fossil record shows lots of meaningful evolutionary changes. You just have to understand that there's only a fraction of the fossil record to see.

Some fossils are so old that they became oil. You know that stuff. Your car drinks that for food.

Look at the fossil record of man, or any other recent mammal. There's are thousands upon thousand of animals that were somewhat different from modern ones, some that were quite different, and some that were damn near alien that were so different. So different that nothing like that exists anymore.

Saying there's no evidence of evolutionary changes in the fossil record is like a guy saying, "Couches don't exist." And then another guy say, "No, look at that couch. It's real. Oh hey, look at this other couch. It exists and is real." And then doing that thousands more times. And then at the end, the first guy say, "Naw, them couches ain't real. They're made up. I've never seen a couch. And there's no evidence of couches anywhere."

Dammit, I said I was out, Lordy.

Seriously, tho. I've enjoyed the discussion even though our views are diametrically opposed. I'm gonna try to watch this WashU game, though. I wish you well, friend. Roll Tide and God bless.

Furthermore, there ample evidence of the gradual evolution of fish->terrestrial vertebrates->mammals:

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to

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I could post evidence nonstop until I'm an old man of fossil evidence of "half this, half that" creatures. We even have that now. What do you think a salamander is? Or a manatee? Or a sea-lion?

Dude, an octopus has a fricking beak and dolphins have lungs. Both are smarter than dogs. Life is evolving now.

There's evidence everywhere, some Christians just don't want to look for some reason. But you not looking doesn't mean it's not there.