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re: Which school in the SEC would you send your children?
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:26 pm to Pigimus Prime
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:26 pm to Pigimus Prime
quote:
You "feel"? Based on what? I was making an argument about graduate schools and support for research. I defy you to find one doctoral department at Arkansas with the level of support and research funding at A&M. Yes, the education can be similar or even better at lower ranked places, but there are many benefits of being in top programs. With respect to academic jobs, students in my field from Arkansas cannot get them. It is really hard to get a job at a place ranked higher than where the degree came from. On undergrad we can agree, but not on grad. BTW, what grad school in Irving is better than A&M, just curious?
Based on my experience! What else?
As I have said countless times, I feel that many of these rankings are very arbitrary and the research capabilities are there for both schools to the appropriate level. For example, Arkansas is in the highest level of Carnegie Classification, which is widely considered to be the standard for identifying doctorate and research activity at a university. However, Auburn isn't on there. Does this mean that Arkansas is a better engineering school than Auburn? Most people would say no. This is one of the many reasons why I don't take these ranking things very seriously (there are many other reasons that I won't get into).
In regards to research funding, you are probably right that A&M has more because they are a much larger school. However, I never had a problem with funding short of trying to propose to our department to sign up for Formula SAE 6 months before the deadline. However, for personal research there was never an issue.
In regards to support? Puh-lease. That is such a silly stance to make. There is no way that you can substantiate that claim in any way. The fact that my professors and graduate assistants would be on call 24/7 and spent many weekends and late nights with me on my projects was support enough for me, as were our sponsors who were able to squeeze us into their busy schedules, oftentimes cutting into their own profit margins.
In regards to graduate work, I will agree with you that the name of the institution is weighed more heavily, but as I have mentioned several times, I so far see no difference in education quality between the two. Please remember that this is what the original discussion was about. Quality of education, not name or reputation.
Georgia Tech
1
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:29 pm to blacknblu
quote:
People are motivated by different things, and with this being the SECr, I figured some might be motivated by athletics. There are a lot of things that make up the college experience - not just academics (or athletics for that matter).
That's why I want some my family members to get an athletic scholarship to Arkansas or Mizzou. Hell it'll save us money and I'm sure they'll remain in the states of Missouri, Kansas, or Oklahoma after they finish school.
I actually went to Missouri(Grad School). Belive me Mizzou is tough when it comes to academics, didn't finish there. The people at Missouri tend to think they are elite, are cocky, look down at you if transfer from another school to get into Mizzou. I'd choose Missouri State over Mizzou any day. Mizzou reminds me of a Big Ten school like Illinois(dad lives 13mi from campus).
I love LSU for the sports. I don't like Baton Rouge's crime rate, the area around the campus, etc. Yes it's a great place to have fun, go to football games, etc but it's also a bad city to live in. I also went there because of a family member playing sports there, thought it'd be an easier and better college experience. I was wrong. Was born in Louisiana but living down there is a different story. BUT in a couple of weeks I will be going back down there for the 3rd time this year.lol.
Fayetteville and Columbia have a very nice feel, clean, safe, good demographics etc. I'd recommend those schools to anyone that want a good education, safe environment, great community, etc.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:30 pm to blacknblu
Alright, I usually stay out of the academic shite throwing threads but I'll bite on this one simply because I've seen too much bullshite.
Anybody that says "a better academic school", please explain exactly what you're saying. If you're saying "you learn more at school A than school B", that is absolutely without a doubt false. That form of education is the responsibility of the individual, especially in today's age of Google where you can get almost any piece of information within a few seconds.
If you're saying "there are better professors so therefore the average student learns more", that is also false but probably has a better statistical significance than the previous statement. I live a few blocks away from Nouriel Roubini the NYU professor who is widely acclaimed as one of the world's best economists. Everyone I know who has taken his class says he's the worst teacher they've had. People learn things differently, whether it be by specific audio or visual examples. Certain teachers may reach some but not others, although I will agree that some teachers can reach more students than others. Regardless it is an arbitrary metric and you can't prove it anyway, also the responsibility of the individual still takes priority.
Now, if you're saying "school A has better opportunities due to alumni networks", then yes that is absolutely true. I work with almost exclusively Ivy Leaguers and they are mostly here because of their network, some of the Harvard grads wouldn't know spreads or cash vs. CDS basis if it was tatooed on the foreheads. If you want to be an accountant, you should go to Texas A&M and get in the PPA program. Does it mean you will learn more about accounting? Not necessarily, but you have a great opportunity to get Big 4 job out of college.
Does that mean somebody that went to another school got a better job than me for going to Arkansas? I graduated last year and started at one of the top financial firms in the entire world and I'm willing to bet my starting salary was better than 99% of all undergraduates from every SEC school (including A&M) last year, and it had nothing to do with any sort of family hook-up. That doesn't mean I'm smarter or somehow got a better education. That just means I worked my arse off and got lucky.
The point of this tl;dr post is that arguing which school has a better education is just asinine. Education is the responsibitliy of the individual. If you want to argue about alumni networks and opportunities, then you have a basis for the arguement. That doesn't mean one school is better than the other and it sure as frick doesn't mean you get a better education at one rather than the other.
If you want to get your kids the best education possible, it has absolutely nothing to do with what school you send them to. It has everything to do with their curiosity and hey much they want to learn.
Anybody that says "a better academic school", please explain exactly what you're saying. If you're saying "you learn more at school A than school B", that is absolutely without a doubt false. That form of education is the responsibility of the individual, especially in today's age of Google where you can get almost any piece of information within a few seconds.
If you're saying "there are better professors so therefore the average student learns more", that is also false but probably has a better statistical significance than the previous statement. I live a few blocks away from Nouriel Roubini the NYU professor who is widely acclaimed as one of the world's best economists. Everyone I know who has taken his class says he's the worst teacher they've had. People learn things differently, whether it be by specific audio or visual examples. Certain teachers may reach some but not others, although I will agree that some teachers can reach more students than others. Regardless it is an arbitrary metric and you can't prove it anyway, also the responsibility of the individual still takes priority.
Now, if you're saying "school A has better opportunities due to alumni networks", then yes that is absolutely true. I work with almost exclusively Ivy Leaguers and they are mostly here because of their network, some of the Harvard grads wouldn't know spreads or cash vs. CDS basis if it was tatooed on the foreheads. If you want to be an accountant, you should go to Texas A&M and get in the PPA program. Does it mean you will learn more about accounting? Not necessarily, but you have a great opportunity to get Big 4 job out of college.
Does that mean somebody that went to another school got a better job than me for going to Arkansas? I graduated last year and started at one of the top financial firms in the entire world and I'm willing to bet my starting salary was better than 99% of all undergraduates from every SEC school (including A&M) last year, and it had nothing to do with any sort of family hook-up. That doesn't mean I'm smarter or somehow got a better education. That just means I worked my arse off and got lucky.
The point of this tl;dr post is that arguing which school has a better education is just asinine. Education is the responsibitliy of the individual. If you want to argue about alumni networks and opportunities, then you have a basis for the arguement. That doesn't mean one school is better than the other and it sure as frick doesn't mean you get a better education at one rather than the other.
If you want to get your kids the best education possible, it has absolutely nothing to do with what school you send them to. It has everything to do with their curiosity and hey much they want to learn.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:34 pm to BennyAndTheInkJets
quote:
Does that mean somebody that went to another school got a better job than me for going to Arkansas? I graduated last year and started at one of the top financial firms in the entire world and I'm willing to bet my starting salary was better than 99% of all undergraduates from every SEC school (including A&M) last year, and it had nothing to do with any sort of family hook-up. That doesn't mean I'm smarter or somehow got a better education. That just means I worked my arse off and got lucky.
Thank you. I know an Arkansas grad making over $300,000 a year running a casino in Oklahoma. Don't personally know a LSU or Mizzou grad making that much, talking about on a personal level.
ETA: Hell didn't Jerry Jones graduate from Arkansas. I also believe the KC Royals owner is an Arkansas Grad. Those 2 are doing quite well if you ask me.
This post was edited on 7/5/12 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:35 pm to FincAg11
quote:
Who the hell woud send their kid to a school based on its athletics unless they were a student athlete?
I disagree, If you took an honest census of people who go to schools like LSU, Arkansas, Alabama, Florida, ect... I guarantee athletics had a part in a lot of the students decisions, especially the out of state ones.
And really it makes sense, once you get out of the top 75 or so in academic rankings, you can't really use the "your school is academically elite" pitch when applying for a job. So it helps o go to a school that is recognizeable and will stand out to a potential boss.
What seprates
quote:
#119 Duquesne University
and
quote:
#128 Louisiana State University
or
quote:
#101 Tennessee
and ranked the same
quote:
#101 University of New Hampshire
Not a lot but many more potential employers know about LSU and Tennessee, wich may be what makes you stick out in their mind over someone who went to a random school. Even better they may have some experience of watching your team play which will again make you stick out in their minds.
It sounds silly that athletics would affect employers decisions,and for a lot of job fields it may not; but for certain fields it could be a big advantage
This post was edited on 7/5/12 at 1:37 pm
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:36 pm to bpfergu
quote:
And once again I respectively disagree. From personal experience I see no discernible differences between the end result of a degree from A&M and one from Arkansas. I work closely with 6+ Aggie graduates on highly technical projects on a daily basis, have and continue to due research with some in graduate school, and also study and take classes with them.
Another good point.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:41 pm to blacknblu
Depends on what my kid is good at and wants to do. Right now, at age 7, she wants to study and work with animals. So, the obvious choice would be Auburn. That's where I'd want her to go for that, although I'd love her just a little less.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:50 pm to blacknblu
quote:
4. Arkansas
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:50 pm to blacknblu
I haven't read the entire thread but here are my $0.02. I don't have kids yet so I'm going off my personal preferance. Obviously, the intended major of my kids and their interests will one day play a big part.
Outside of AU, I really like the atmospheres at Georgia and Ole Miss the most. After that, Vandy would have to be up there for academics. Mississippi State, South Carolina, and even Alabama have things going for them that I like as well.
Outside of AU, I really like the atmospheres at Georgia and Ole Miss the most. After that, Vandy would have to be up there for academics. Mississippi State, South Carolina, and even Alabama have things going for them that I like as well.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 1:57 pm to TigerBait2008
quote:
TigerBait2008
What is really funny is that 4th was as high as I could go (and I'm a homer).
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:06 pm to blacknblu
quote:
TigerBait2008
What is really funny is that 4th was as high as I could go (and I'm a homer).
I don't get the laughing at Arkansas stuff. Do people PERSONALLY know Arkansas grads or have they actually visited Fayetteville or NW Arkansas. The area is booming. A very fast growing metropolitan area. I believe it's metro area is 450,000. I may joke about Wal-Mart money funding University of Arkansas and NWA because I'm jealous. Joplin is getting new businesses and homes because of FEMA money. Northwest Arkansas is booming because of good finances, economic boom. Drive down Interstate 540 and you see nothing but new businesses, banks, hotels, etc sprouting up.
quote:
The four-county Northwest Arkansas Metropolitan Statistical Area is ranked 109th in terms of population in the United States with 463,204 in 2010 according to the United States Census Bureau. The city itself had a population of 73,580 at the 2010 Census. Fayetteville is deeply tied to the University of Arkansas, which is the flagship university in the state. Fall and spring bring thousands of students to campus which dramatically change the complexion of Fayetteville. As a Southeastern Conference institution, thousands of Arkansas Razorbacks fans descend upon Fayetteville for home football, basketball and baseball games. The city also contains the University of Arkansas' track and field program which has won 42 national championships to date.[4] Fayetteville was ranked as the 7th best college sports town and 8th for Business and Careers by Forbes.[5][6] Kiplinger's 2008 "Best Cities to Work, Live and Play" list featured Fayetteville as #7.[7] U.S. News ranked Fayetteville one of the best places to retire.[8] Although based in nearby Bentonville, Walmart's impact on Fayetteville cannot be understated. The city hosts the Wal-Mart Shareholders Meetings each year at Bud Walton Arena and is home to several of Walmart's corporate partners. Forbes Magazine also named the Fayetteville–Springdale–Rogers area as the second-best area in the United States for recovery from the current United States recession. Reasons cited were the presence of #1 Fortune 500 corporation Walmart being based in the area in addition to low unemployment (5.0%) compared to national averages.[9]
This post was edited on 7/5/12 at 2:08 pm
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:12 pm to FincAg11
quote:
Hell, look at our research endowment compared to the rest of the SEC. It's a little ridiculous.
How many students fall under the A&M system umbrella? 120k? Your endowment and funding is stretched pretty far.
When you compare on a per capita basis, A&M is pretty similar to everyone else. Yes, A&M holds large endowments, but they've also got a metric shite-ton of students and professors to service.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:16 pm to bayou2003
It is beautiful country, and all joking aside, a very good school and community. Regardless of where I live, whenever I'm in NWA, I'm home.
Arkansas gets a bad rap, and for all intents and purpose, has earned a bit of that bad rap. No school is beyond reproach, and laughing at some of the stereotypes helps diminish some of the actions which helped form the stereotypes. At least we're not Aggies
Arkansas gets a bad rap, and for all intents and purpose, has earned a bit of that bad rap. No school is beyond reproach, and laughing at some of the stereotypes helps diminish some of the actions which helped form the stereotypes. At least we're not Aggies
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:23 pm to blacknblu
It doesn't matter. If they are anything like their father, they will spend 4 years drunk off their arse having a good time. You can do that at any SEC school.
I would love to share the UA undergrad experience with them, but whatever makes them happy would make me happy.
I would love to share the UA undergrad experience with them, but whatever makes them happy would make me happy.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:27 pm to bpfergu
quote:
Based on my experience! What else?
As I have said countless times, I feel that many of these rankings are very arbitrary and the research capabilities are there for both schools to the appropriate level. For example, Arkansas is in the highest level of Carnegie Classification, which is widely considered to be the standard for identifying doctorate and research activity at a university. However, Auburn isn't on there. Does this mean that Arkansas is a better engineering school than Auburn? Most people would say no. This is one of the many reasons why I don't take these ranking things very seriously (there are many other reasons that I won't get into).
In regards to research funding, you are probably right that A&M has more because they are a much larger school. However, I never had a problem with funding short of trying to propose to our department to sign up for Formula SAE 6 months before the deadline. However, for personal research there was never an issue.
In regards to support? Puh-lease. That is such a silly stance to make. There is no way that you can substantiate that claim in any way. The fact that my professors and graduate assistants would be on call 24/7 and spent many weekends and late nights with me on my projects was support enough for me, as were our sponsors who were able to squeeze us into their busy schedules, oftentimes cutting into their own profit margins.
In regards to graduate work, I will agree with you that the name of the institution is weighed more heavily, but as I have mentioned several times, I so far see no difference in education quality between the two. Please remember that this is what the original discussion was about. Quality of education, not name or reputation.
Georgia Tech
How can experience at one university and not the other drive anything but feelings, which I argue are irrelevant. Why do we have rankings? Is it just to make some universities arbitrarily look good and others bad?
Of course we can cherry pick colleges/departments from any university and say it is better here than there. I am talking across the board. Look at things like faculty salaries, grant money, publications, and graduate placement. These things, along with reputation (occasionally) are usually interacted in some way to come up with the rankings. The Carengie rankings are quite broad and only categorically distinguishable. Arkansas has not been VH for very long by the way. We have to look beyond that. I admit as a general rule, few doctoral programs outside of VH are worth attending. There are, as you point out, exceptions to this.
Check these out (I left off the typical US News rankings because they are known to be quite subjective):
MUP
A&M Endowment
ARWU
NSF
AAU - Also a broad category, but much narrower than VH
There are others, but I think we can see that rankings are not just some group of elites coming up with arbitrary lists. Things can be measured and ordered. Are they all meaningless with respect to quality of education? If the question had been where we could send kids for degree X, then maybe we could pick more subjectively. As long as we are talking in general terms then we have to go with the evidence we have. Feelings, hearsay, and knowing people are simply not good enough to produce an informed answer.
I continue to maintain that all schools in the SEC can produced fine graduates, as can all schools in the Sun Belt. When we get down to brass tacks though, something separates some schools from others. I cannot see how one could argue that universities that produce more scholarly output to their respective fields, have more financial support, better job placement, and more difficult admission standards are not superior places to be educated.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:41 pm to blacknblu
If my child wanted to major in: Veterinary Medicine, Landscape Architecture, Petroleum Engineering, Music/Dramatic Arts, Geophysics, Meteorology, or Agribusiness - the choice is easy - LSU. The first three are ranked in the Top 10 in the nation on the Baton Rouge campus.
If my child were an athlete - I would choose LSU because it has the prototype, nationally lauded Cox Academic Center for Student Athletes, and of course has one of the richest traditions in CFB.
Overall, I would still choose LSU, followed by:
Georgia,
Texas A&M
Florida
Vanderbilt.
If my child were an athlete - I would choose LSU because it has the prototype, nationally lauded Cox Academic Center for Student Athletes, and of course has one of the richest traditions in CFB.
Overall, I would still choose LSU, followed by:
Georgia,
Texas A&M
Florida
Vanderbilt.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:45 pm to blacknblu
Vanderbilt and it's not even close. Although Jawja and Florida are up there.
This post was edited on 7/5/12 at 2:46 pm
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:50 pm to blacknblu
Any of them. If you apply yourself and pick a good major you can be reasonably successful regardless of where you go.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:53 pm to Pigimus Prime
quote:
I continue to maintain that all schools in the SEC can produced fine graduates, as can all schools in the Sun Belt. When we get down to brass tacks though, something separates some schools from others. I cannot see how one could argue that universities that produce more scholarly output to their respective fields, have more financial support, better job placement, and more difficult admission standards are not superior places to be educated.
Exactly.
Posted on 7/5/12 at 2:55 pm to TeLeFaWx
There isn't a school in the SEC that I wouldn't let my children go to if that's where they chose to go after carefully weighing all options and metrics.
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