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re: Doesn't the direction of what this world is going scare you a bit?
Posted on 12/2/17 at 1:20 pm to Perfect Circle
Posted on 12/2/17 at 1:20 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:
The world doesn't want the moral restraints of religion.
Morality is not exclusive to religions. Good and bad are fairly obvious to anyone. How about when a person's existence doesn't affect another person, good or bad? That's where religions muck things up.
I don't think people want a "do as thou wilt" world as much as they want a "live and let live" society in which boundaries are respected. Our society is embroiled in discord because of this issue. Evangelical Christians want to impose their morals on all of society.
Instead, they should appreciate that they can exercise their religion in a country that is bound to provide the same rights to other religions and atheists as Christians want to enjoy. When one person's rights bump up against the rights of another person, then a boundary is in effect and must be respected.
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Posted on 12/2/17 at 2:44 pm to Kentucker
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Good and bad are fairly obvious to anyone.
While it may, or may not be obvious, too few people consistently make a choice for the good. We don't have to teach our children how to be bad; they're born knowing that. We have to teach them how to be good.
Without a moral compass, or system of moral values, my experience is people tend to descend into animal-like behavior...an existence of satisfying their basic base needs and wants.
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Evangelical Christians want to impose their morals on all of society.
This is not true of the evangelical Christians I know, and I know quite a few.
We believe in treating our fellow man the way we ourselves would like to be treated, and to love our God with everything we have.
We're hoping you'll see something in the way we live our lives that is attractive to you; that you'll want what we have. It's a religion of attraction first, then promotion. We aren't trying to force our morals on anyone.
But you have to admit, the Bible has been the world's most influential force in shaping a concensus on moral behavior.
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Instead, they should appreciate that they can exercise their religion in a country that is bound to provide the same rights to other religions and atheists as Christians want to enjoy.
I thank God for this every day: that for no other reason than that He's gracious, I was born an American, and am free to worship as I see fit.
Posted on 12/2/17 at 3:12 pm to Perfect Circle
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Bible shaping morals....
The Bible also gave us the Inquisition, the Crusades and many people were murdered, tortured and jailed bc of it.
Morality existed long before Abraham or Jesus
Posted on 12/2/17 at 6:46 pm to Perfect Circle
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Without a moral compass, or system of moral values, my experience is people tend to descend into animal-like behavior...an existence of satisfying their basic base needs and wants.
It's the source of that "system of moral values" that is the major point of contention, I think. If we define "bad" as hurting others and "good" as helping others, then I think parents, teachers, community leaders and even peers can impart to children what is basically good and bad. Religion is not necessary as far as a society's mores are concerned.
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This is not true of the evangelical Christians I know, and I know quite a few.
I think you're a minority. Evangelicals constitute a quarter of the US population and their influence, especially in the South, is traditionally disproportionate to their numbers. Their claims to entitlement because of their numbers is disturbing and is a danger to other religions and the nonreligious.
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But you have to admit, the Bible has been the world's most influential force in shaping a concensus on moral behavior.
In the English speaking world, yes. In the rest of the world, no. The earth currently has 7.5 billion people. Of those, more than 5 billion are not Christians so societal mores are shaped by nonChristian values for most people of earth.
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and am free to worship as I see fit.
How refreshing and encouraging it would be if statements like this from Christians included, "...in this nation where everyone can worship as they see fit, or not worship at all, without fear from others."
Posted on 12/2/17 at 9:12 pm to Kentucker
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It's the source of that "system of moral values" that's the main point of contention, I think.
Yes.
From my point of view, a moral values system based on the best thinking of men, is a broken system.
The corruption in our government, at every level, is unprecedented. Why? Fame and fortune; cruel gods.
Teachers are reporting discipline problems with students like never before. Why? In most cases, it's because the parent(s) is(are) so busy in their selfish self-centeredness to be bothered with their children's education, much less teach morals. You can't give away what you don't have, right?
And does it seem there are many more instances of teachers having inappropriate relationships with students?
I'm not saying these things have never been around, but they've never been as prevalent as they are at present. Evidence of the decline in morals.
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Religion is not necessary as far as society's mores are concerned.
True. Religion does more harm than good. But I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about a relationship. We've had this discussion before. Not sure if you remember. If you do, you know where I stand. It comes down to Faith, at least for me.
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...and their influence, especially in the South, is traditionally disproportionate to their numbers.
True. I think this is because people with strong moral value systems, like evangelicals, are just more likely to vote, and have strong opinions on issues.
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Their claims to entitlement because of their numbers is disturbing and is a danger to other religions and the nonreligious.
Disturbing to who? You?
A danger? That's your opinion. Not one I share.
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How refreshing and encouraging it would be if statements like this from Christians included, "... in this nation where everyone can worship as they see fit, or not worship at all, without fear from others."
Be encouraged! We already have this.
Posted on 12/3/17 at 12:04 pm to Perfect Circle
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The world doesn't want the moral restraints of religion.
The world doesn't need anything from religion. All a person really needs is resilience, some good sense and ingenuity, and respect for fellow man. If you have all that, you'll be just fine. There's no need for all the supernatural packaging.
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People want a "do as thou wilt" philosophy. Consequently, people are selfish and self-centered to the extreme.
I don't think so. We wouldn't have achieved so much as a species if we weren't generally willing to work together for mutual benefit. We still have evil and likely always will, but we are continuously getting better in spite of how it may seem in the media.
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Also, the world around us is just more dangerous. There are too many weapons of mass destruction possessed by too many people who want to do us harm. Weaponized diseases. Eventually, terrorists, already motivated, will find a means to deliver them. A nuclear blast in the atmosphere would disrupt the power grids throughout the world, resulting in hundreds of millions of deaths. The population, in general, isn't prepared for catastrophes of this magnitude.
That could happen. A species possessing the intelligence of humans could be a bad thing or a good thing depending on how the future unfolds. We may destroy ourselves prematurely or (unlike the dinosaurs) thwart whatever extinction level event inevitably confronts us. We have the capacity for both.
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While it may, or may not be obvious, too few people consistently make a choice for the good. We don't have to teach our children how to be bad; they're born knowing that. We have to teach them how to be good.
How do you define "good"? Is a "good" person someone who is simply willing to conform to society and doesn't break any significant laws? Or is a "good" person someone who doesn't drink alcohol, masturbate to porn, or say cuss words?
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Without a moral compass, or system of moral values, my experience is people tend to descend into animal-like behavior...an existence of satisfying their basic base needs and wants.
Ironically, several animal species are better than humans at developing social structures. Ants, bees and dolphins are great at it, and they don't use Bibles.
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But you have to admit, the Bible has been the world's most influential force in shaping a concensus on moral behavior.
Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter. Santa Claus has influence over the behavior of kids who want to receive presents for Christmas, but that doesn't make him real. He's just an instrument used by parents, just like religion is an instrument used by society. The problem is society and religion in the year 2017 are like a 15 year old kid who still believes in Santa Claus. It's past time to grow up and start thinking purely for practical reasons.
The way I see the whole thing is very simple: Humans are better off working together. We can't (as individuals) become experts at everything. No one can be a mechanic, a welder, a doctor, a computer guru, a barber, etc., all at the same time. People have to specialize and fit roles for us to have all the things we have, and for these roles to mesh there has to be laws. The need for societal laws against things like theft and murder are obvious regardless of whether or not you believe a virgin was impregnated by a deity 2,000 years ago and you're going to burn for eternity if you don't believe it.
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I thank God for this every day: that for no other reason than that He's gracious, I was born an American, and am free to worship as I see fit.
If you had been born in the East your opinions on God almost certainly would be quite different. I don't know where the gate to hell is, but it's bound to be east of Europe.
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The corruption in our government, at every level, is unprecedented. Why? Fame and fortune; cruel gods. Teachers are reporting discipline problems with students like never before. Why? In most cases, it's because the parent(s) is(are) so busy in their selfish self-centeredness to be bothered with their children's education, much less teach morals. You can't give away what you don't have, right? And does it seem there are many more instances of teachers having inappropriate relationships with students? I'm not saying these things have never been around, but they've never been as prevalent as they are at present. Evidence of the decline in morals.
Speaking of schools and morals, back in the 1960s George Wallace literally stood in the way of integration at the Univ. of Alabama and a number of private schools arose in the years afterwards because a lot racist white people didn't want their children to go to school with black people.
I don't see a lot of morality in that.
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True. Religion does more harm than good. But I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about a relationship. We've had this discussion before. Not sure if you remember. If you do, you know where I stand. It comes down to Faith, at least for me.
Your personal experiences are your own. There are many that conflict with it.
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True. I think this is because people with strong moral value systems, like evangelicals, are just more likely to vote, and have strong opinions on issues.
The problem is when they have strong opinions on things that aren't really any of their business.
Posted on 12/3/17 at 6:44 pm to Globetrotter747
I appreciate you taking time to respond to my post. You make some really good points. I don't agree with many of them, but it's refreshing to have an exchange of different viewpoints without descending into putdowns and insults.
Posted on 12/4/17 at 5:57 pm to Perfect Circle
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it's refreshing to have an exchange of different viewpoints without descending into putdowns and insults.
Definitely.
If you don't mind, I am going to detail an observation and then ask you a question about it.
When you look around the world you see that religions are largely concentrated in certain areas. We generally associate western countries with Christianity, middle eastern countries with Islam, and eastern countries with Hinduism and Buddhism. Clearly culture has an enormous impact on what people believe regarding God and religion. People almost always adopt the dominant religion of their culture and/or heritage. There are exceptions - I am one - but that is an indisputable observation.
So here is my question: How do you know that the same influences that cause a person from Baghdad to be Muslim or a person from Mumbai to be Hindu are not the primary reasons why you're a Christian? How can you trust that your devotion to Christianity, its legitimacy, and any kind of epiphany you may have felt aren't really just a misguided cultural manifestation of human frailty that is fundamentally no different from what you probably think of other theists around the world?
Posted on 12/4/17 at 10:54 pm to Globetrotter747
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So here is my question: how do you know that the same influences that cause a person from Baghdad to be Muslim or a person from Mumbai to be Hindu are not the primary reasons why you're a Christian? How can you trust that your devotion to Christianity, it's legitimacy, and any kind of epiphany you may have felt aren't really just a misguided cultural manifestation of human frailty that is fundamentally no different from what you probably think of other theists around the world?
Wow, what a question! Im often not good at expressing myself, but I'll do my best to answer.
Let me say again how blessed I am that I'm an American, and as such, I'm free to worship the God of my understanding without fear of persecution. I'm also free to explore the tenants of other religions; to compare. One of the religions you mentioned allows none of this. My life would be forfeit were I to refuse to be converted. I would have no choice but to convert, if I wanted to live. That doesnt reflect the character of a loving God, in my opinion. Like I said, by the Grace of God, I'm an American!
I've not always been a Christian. Didn't come to Christianity until later in life. I wasn't raised in the church, and was taught Christianity equals hypocrisy.
In college, I studied Hinduism, Buddhism, Toaism; all the Far Eastern religions. Never felt compelled to learn more of these religions than would get me a good grade on a test.
At this time I considered myself to be agnostic, but I lived like an atheist. I was into drugs, alcohol; all kinds of selfish self-centeredness. I used people.
Eventually, I came to a place where I was deep into addiction, and wondered, "is this all there is to life?" According to my philosophy, mankind came from nothing, meant nothing, and was going nowhere. So was my life.
Hit rock bottom and was off to rehab. There I was introduced to Alcoholics Anonymous, whose main principle is that some recover from addiction through a spiritual solution.
My best thinking put me in rehab. I was desperate, so I became willing to accept the possibility that there may be a loving God that could restore my sanity. Nothing else had ever worked, why not?
Let me say AA is not in favor of any religion, but only suggests a spiritual solution in recovery. But some of those I met were Christian.
Well, I would watch and listen to these people. In the AA meetings, I saw people face incredible hardships with a sense of peace, grace and dignity. And they did it without drinking or drugging. Well, I wanted more than anything to be able to do that. I didn't know what they had, but I wanted it.
I know this is turning into a long story, so I'll try to move it along.
Was invited to a Christian church, and felt compelled to learn more. It was like a hunger. I remember thinking: "So God doesn't have list of conditions I have to meet in order to be saved. I dont have to clean myself up first. He doesn't have a list of chores for me to work through everyday in order to stay saved. As a matter of fact, there's nothing I could ever do to earn Salvation. Do I have all this straight?"
The Beatitudes? Beautiful. Jesus and the adulterous woman? Beautiful. The more I learned, the more I wanted to learn.
Yes, my friends would say, God loves you so much, He withheld nothing, not even His own Son, that you would be saved. Well, this was nothing like I'd ever heard before.
I know I still haven't addressed your question. I probably can't answer it to your satisfaction.
The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 1:23, The gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Gentiles. And in verse 18, The message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.
I was born American, where the dominant religion is Christianity. I didnt have to become Christian; I have a brain, I can think for myself. To me that's just the Grace of God. That makes me extremely Grateful.
When it's all said and done, it always comes down to Faith.
Consider Jesus, born humbly and scandalously into a poor, unknown family. Trained as a carpenter in an obscure village. Later He moved about as an itinerant teacher. He never travelled more than a few hundred miles from his birthplace.
He was mocked and tortored and executed just 3 years into His ministry.
And yet, His teachings have reached every corner of the world, and is the basis for the world's largest religion. There has never been a more successful human being. How could any of this be possible were it not of God?
Posted on 12/5/17 at 7:02 am to Perfect Circle
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Let me say again how blessed I am that I'm an American, and as such, I'm free to worship the God of my understanding without fear of persecution.
There might not be persecution from the government in the world's more civilized and advanced countries, but it can be difficult being an adherent of a minority religion anywhere, including the United States. And people aren't usually drawn to positions that may ostracize them from family and friends, which is one thing that I believe perpetuates majority religions.
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I've not always been a Christian. Didn't come to Christianity until later in life. I wasn't raised in the church, and was taught Christianity equals hypocrisy.
I'm the opposite. I was raised by Christians and gradually became an atheist by about the time I was a freshman in college.
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In college, I studied Hinduism, Buddhism, Toaism; all the Far Eastern religions. Never felt compelled to learn more of these religions than would get me a good grade on a test.
Few Americans have any interest in non-Christian religions. It's a culture thing and part of my point. I have zero interest in soccer, but if I had been born and raised in the UK or Spain I might be fanatical about it.
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At this time I considered myself to be agnostic, but I lived like an atheist. I was into drugs, alcohol; all kinds of selfish self-centeredness. I used people.
There's no such thing as living like an atheist. My disbelief in deities doesn't affect my daily life any more than my disbelief in Bigfoot. No one is defined by what they don't believe in - but by what they do believe in. I believe in discipline and compassion, and I don't need a deity or religion to reinforce those things.
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Eventually, I came to a place where I was deep into addiction, and wondered, "is this all there is to life?" According to my philosophy, mankind came from nothing, meant nothing, and was going nowhere. So was my life.
You can attribute meaning to anything. I travel the world and often see incredible mountainous landscapes that were around millions of years before me and will be around for millions of years after me and think, "Wow, how lucky am I to have a few years to appreciate all this beauty?"
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I was born American, where the dominant religion is Christianity. I didnt have to become Christian; I have a brain, I can think for myself.
I had to attend a church service with a group I'm involved in a long while back and during the service a young girl was baptized. She was probably 10 years old and way too young to have any real critical thinking skills. She was baptized because her parents put her up to it.
When religion gets a grip on children at such a young age and is then reinforced by parents and society throughout their lives and is passed on to the next generation in the same way there is no wonder why it perpetuates.
You may have taken a more roundabout way, but you're still a Christian living in Alabama. You adopted the most convenient religion, which nearly everyone does.
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And yet, His teachings have reached every corner of the world, and is the basis for the world's largest religion. There has never been a more successful human being. How could any of this be possible were it not of God?
The fact that there are several non-Christian religions with hundreds of millions (even over a billion) adherents around the world means that a religion doesn't have to be true - they can't all be true - to be successful. Even a Christian has to see this.
Some religion has to "finish first," but a successfully spread falsehood is still a falsehood.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 8:58 am to Perfect Circle
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The world doesn't want the moral restraints of religion
I'll create my own religion, with hookers and blow.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 10:27 am to thomasbrown_2007
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Years ago you could pick a up a hitchhiker and it would be no issue. But now, it's dangerous.
It was always dangerous. Oftentimes more for the hitchhiker than the driver. It just wasn't publicized enough to make people aware.
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:36 am to Globetrotter747
OK, our opinions differ. Your take on things is interesting, and I've enjoyed the dialogue. Cheers!
Posted on 12/5/17 at 11:37 am to pvilleguru
Do as thou wilt, Pville.
This post was edited on 12/5/17 at 11:39 am
Posted on 12/5/17 at 3:41 pm to thomasbrown_2007
only if you are a pussy
or PLUMP crazy..like fat chicks huh?
or PLUMP crazy..like fat chicks huh?
Posted on 12/6/17 at 8:05 am to thomasbrown_2007
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Doesn't the direction of what this world is going scare you a bit?
No, I'm locked and loaded with a various assortment of weapons. Looking to get turrets added to my Tundra for the morning trip in to the city.
All good.
Posted on 12/10/17 at 4:22 pm to TbirdSpur2010
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No.
I fear God.
Ah, but do you dread nought?
Posted on 12/11/17 at 3:21 am to thomasbrown_2007
I'm all for eugenics/genetic engineering. shite's out of hand. Nothing wrong with a little snip snip for the mentally, psychologically, and morally defective.
Posted on 12/11/17 at 3:45 am to thomasbrown_2007
When you say the world do you mean USA? I guarantee Syria has a different opinion.
Posted on 12/11/17 at 11:54 am to Perfect Circle
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A nuclear blast in the atmosphere would disrupt the power grids throughout the world, resulting in hundreds of millions of deaths.
No it wouldn't. Whoever told you that doesn't understand EMPs.
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