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Dark matter and dark energy.

Posted on 3/4/17 at 1:06 pm
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 1:06 pm
Those two comprise 96 % of the entire universe. Everything our physics understands only applies to 4% of the universe. It is kind of frustrating to say the least. What is this stuff? Will we ever figure it out in our lifetimes?
Posted by RebelTheBear
Saban's spare bedroom
Member since Aug 2016
5530 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 3:04 pm to
From what I know (and I'm no physicist), dark matter is instrumental in how we understand the idea that the universe expands, almost as if dark matter causes this stretching that is observed by astronomers and scientists. Again, I don't know very much about it, but this is how I understand it.

I could be totally wrong. If anyone knows please let me know lol
Posted by GoldenDawg
Dawg in Exile
Member since Oct 2013
19081 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 5:02 pm to
We don't even know what we don't know.

It's amazing how clueless we are about all things around us, under us, and in us. Let alone space and all that entails.

It's pretty cool to speculate though. And we'll never run out of things to speculate on, that's for sure.
Posted by Silverback
Gumpin' ain't easy
Member since Aug 2011
4308 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 5:10 pm to
You should watch the mystery of Dark Matter video on Amazin prime.
This post was edited on 3/4/17 at 5:12 pm
Posted by PrivatePublic
Member since Nov 2012
17848 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 5:36 pm to
Obviously I have no idea what it's is, but I wouldn't be shocked if the ultimate explanation is our models and/or observations were a bit off, and dark matter is as real as the ether was.
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 6:14 pm to
Maybe. It's just a term that is used to explain gravitational differences that can't be explained by the amount of stars and matter in the galaxy. Something is going on there so we call that unknown "dark matter". May not ever explain what it is.
Posted by MIZ_COU
I'm right here
Member since Oct 2013
13771 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 6:38 pm to
racist
Posted by Commander Data
Baton Rouge, La
Member since Dec 2016
7289 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 6:53 pm to
Ha ha. Thought this would have been posted quicker...
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 7:04 pm to
This is almost certainly the case. Our equations don't match reality, so we propose a form of matter that cannot be interacted with in any way and whose only effect on the universe is to neatly and exactly fill in the gap in said equations? Yeah... ok. That sounds awfully convenient to me.

There will eventually be another paradigm shift which will explain away dark matter the way relativity explained away the ether and "light tiredness."
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/4/17 at 8:02 pm to
quote:

Our equations don't match reality, so we propose a form of matter that cannot be interacted with in any way and whose only effect on the universe is to neatly and exactly fill in the gap in said equations?


Actually, there's indirect physical evidence for both dark matter and dark energy. When the great astronomer Vera Rubin assessed the rotation of galaxies about their centers, she noticed that the outer-most stars orbited at the same speed as those closest to the center.

This is counterintuitive, of course, and her discovery startled the physics community. The inner-most stars should orbit the center much faster than those further out, similar to the orbits of our planets about the sun. The only sensible explanation is that the great gravity needed to hold 100 billion+ stars in such a rigid dance about the galaxy's center is coming from an unseen and, so far, undetectable source of matter.

Other indirect evidence for dark matter is gravitational lensing. Many distant galaxies cannot be seen directly from earth because of other galaxies sitting between us and them. However, concentrations of dark matter on our line of sight to some galaxies exerts tremendous gravity upon the light from them and actually bends their light around the blocking galaxies and we see distortions of them. See illustrations below.





Indirect evidence for dark energy is the ever increasing rate of expansion of the Universe. It was Edwin Hubble in the 1920s who first determined that the Universe was expanding.

It wasn't until the 1990s, however, that astronomers determined that the expansion was occurring at a constantly increasing rate. The sensible explanation is that a force is pushing matter apart faster and faster. The term dark energy just means that we have no clue what it is. Or dark matter, either, for that matter (pun intended ).

It's thought that dark energy overcame the pull of gravity some 5 billion years ago and began to express its domination of expansion at the ever increasing rate. Will it eventually attain a maximum rate of expansion? No one knows.

Dark matter and dark energy aren't the only dark things we're currently studying. There's also dark flow.

From Wikipedia:
quote:

Dark flow is an astrophysical term describing a possible non-random component of the peculiar velocity of galaxy clusters. The actual measured velocity is the sum of the velocity predicted by Hubble's Law plus a possible small and unexplained (or dark) velocity flowing in a common direction.


quote:

According to standard cosmological models, the motion of galaxy clusters with respect to the cosmic microwave background should be randomly distributed in all directions. However, analyzing the three-year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) data using the kinematic Sunyaev-Zel'dovich effect, astronomers Alexander Kashlinsky, F. Atrio-Barandela, D. Kocevski and H. Ebeling found evidence of a "surprisingly coherent" 600–1000 km/s flow of clusters toward a 20-degree patch of sky between the constellations of Centaurus and Vela.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 5:19 am to
Yes, I'm aware of the "evidence" for dark matter, which is that currently accepted models for how gravity work show that, for galaxies and other supermassive objects to behave the way that they do, they should contain orders of magnitude more mass than what we observe them to have. The examples that you included in your post are just variations on that theme. Now, since the models don't match with observed reality, there are only two possible conclusions that can be drawn: either a) the models are wrong or b) we aren't observing reality properly. Astrophysicists have chosen to go with answer "b" and have assumed the existence of an invisible, undetectable, undefinable substance called "dark matter" whose supposed properties are revealed solely by the amount of error in the models. The way we know how much "dark matter" a given galaxy supposedly contains is by solving the relevant equations of motion for it and then seeing how much they don't match with the galaxy's actual behavior. If that isn't the very definition of a "solution of the gaps," then I don't know what is.

The other conclusion - that current gravitational models are wrong - is obviously scary for astrophysicists and so no one wants to propose it, especially because no one has yet come up with a better model that continues to work at supermassive scales (you don't make a name for yourself as a scientist by saying, "I just don't know."). Since the two men who have done the most to shape humanity's current understanding of gravity (Newton and Einstein) are considered two of the greatest geniuses that ever lived, this is not particularly surprising. Men like that don't come along in every generation, or even every century. So, while we wait for the next paradigm-shifter, some very smart people will sit and play with their pet theories about how to fill the gaps in the models. The true genius, however, will be the man who doesn't fill the gaps, but eliminates them.
Posted by Vols&Shaft83
Throbbing Member
Member since Dec 2012
69896 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 7:29 am to
I thought Dark matter was Niblonian poop
Posted by GurleyGirl
Georgia
Member since Nov 2015
13163 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 9:22 am to
Good information on the subject.

Translation of that last image: our data might well be misleading = the outer galaxies from our perspective might well NOT be rotating at the same rate as the inner galaxies. Also, our isolated perspective doesn't even come close to representing reality. It's analogous to taking a single sample of ocean water at some shoreline and assuming it is representative of all the ocean water on earth.
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 1:04 pm to
quote:

Yes, I'm aware of the "evidence" for dark matter, which is that currently accepted models for how gravity work show that, for galaxies and other supermassive objects to behave the way that they do, they should contain orders of magnitude more mass than what we observe them to have.


Yes, evidence in science is only that which is observable.

quote:

The examples that you included in your post are just variations on that theme.


These examples are the only evidence, indirect as they are, that an unknown entity scientists are labeling dark matter is exerting gravitational influence upon known matter. They seem to be quite strong, however, since they occur everywhere we look in the Universe.

It should be said at this point that the term "dark matter" is being used by scientists merely to designate an unknown entity. It does not imply that any properties other than the exertion of gravity is known or, god forbid, assumed.

A scientist doesn't use the word "assumed" because it implies a lack of evidence. Rather, he can hypothesize from observations. However, he must be ready to defend his proposal or face humiliation. The scientific community can be vicious and doesn't take kindly to anyone who seeks notoriety or self gain, especially at the expense of the scientific method. Religion and politics may tolerate grandiose personalities but science doesn't. Even the great Stephen Hawking is eroding his stature within the scientific community with some of the bullshite he's feeding the lay public regarding the perils of alien contact, for example. It's difficult to blame him for using his stature to make money, but that's the nature of the standards for scientists.

quote:

Now, since the models don't match with observed reality, there are only two possible conclusions that can be drawn: either a) the models are wrong or b) we aren't observing reality properly. Astrophysicists have chosen to go with answer "b" and have assumed the existence of an invisible, undetectable, undefinable substance called "dark matter" whose supposed properties are revealed solely by the amount of error in the models. The way we know how much "dark matter" a given galaxy supposedly contains is by solving the relevant equations of motion for it and then seeing how much they don't match with the galaxy's actual behavior. If that isn't the very definition of a "solution of the gaps," then I don't know what is
.

Science is eternally malleable. Every discovery causes more questions to be asked. Words such as "reality" and "conclusions" evoke a sense of absolutism. They can only be subjective and aren't useful in describing observations or principles.

Also, when you say, "Astrophysicists have chosen to go with answer 'b'and have assumed the existence of an invisible, undetectable, undefinable substance called 'dark matter' whose supposed properties are revealed solely by the amount of error in the models," you are implying that a majority of scientists are endorsing aspects of dark matter. This just isn't so.

First, no assumptions are being made. That's unscientific. Also, the only property that is proposed and supported by observation is a gravitational exertion by the unknown entity.

quote:

The other conclusion - that current gravitational models are wrong - is obviously scary for astrophysicists and so no one wants to propose it, especially because no one has yet come up with a better model that continues to work at supermassive scales (you don't make a name for yourself as a scientist by saying, "I just don't know.").


The mark of a great scientist is his ability to say, "I don't know." I can't imagine why you would think otherwise. Furthermore, anyone who wants to make a name for himself in science knows that he must first impress his peers with his knowledge and discoveries. That isn't easy, to say the least.

quote:

Since the two men who have done the most to shape humanity's current understanding of gravity (Newton and Einstein) are considered two of the greatest geniuses that ever lived, this is not particularly surprising. Men like that don't come along in every generation, or even every century. So, while we wait for the next paradigm-shifter, some very smart people will sit and play with their pet theories about how to fill the gaps in the models. The true genius, however, will be the man who doesn't fill the gaps, but eliminates them.


I have only two words as a response, Edward Witten. The world's leading string theorist, he makes Stephen Hawking seem like a high schooler by comparison.
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 1:41 pm to
quote:

I thought Dark matter was Niblonian poop.


It is. There are deniers, of course, as there are with every hypothesis but the evidence strongly indicates Niblonian involvement. Can't keep those frickers out of anything.
This post was edited on 3/5/17 at 1:52 pm
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 1:50 pm to
quote:

Translation of that last image: our data might well be misleading = the outer galaxies from our perspective might well NOT be rotating at the same rate as the inner galaxies.


There's no evidence that physics is different in other parts of the Universe. Actually, all observations indicate that physical laws are uniform, at least in this Universe. They are likely different in other Universes, though.

quote:

Also, our isolated perspective doesn't even come close to representing reality. It's analogous to taking a single sample of ocean water at some shoreline and assuming it is representative of all the ocean water on earth.


Reality is subjective while observations are objective. From our vantage point we can see the Universe very well. While there may be parts of the Universe that we will never be able to observe because of expansion, we can project our observations upon them based on the laws of physics.
Posted by TheTideMustRoll
Birmingham, AL
Member since Dec 2009
8906 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 2:48 pm to
I appreciate your response to my post. I think we are saying some of the same things in different ways. I agree that science is malleable. It must be, because our understanding of the world is constantly advancing. That's my point. Quite literally, the only function dark matter serves in the universe is to explain why our models of gravity don't give us the answers we expect. Is it not more probable that we have, once again, run up against the boundaries of our current understanding of how things work and need to improve our models, than it is that this incredibly convenient substance actually exists? That's the paradigm shift that I'm saying we need.
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 3:52 pm to
quote:

Is it not more probable that we have, once again, run up against the boundaries of our current understanding of how things work and need to improve our models, than it is that this incredibly convenient substance actually exists?


Well, I can only add this: The scientific method is sacrosanct and infallible. It is beyond anthropomorphic influence. Current observational evidence indicates that dark matter and dark energy exist.

Certainly something is strongly influencing the orbits of stars and other matter within galaxies. Also, something is bending light in areas where we can't detect anything via observation. For lack of a better term that might describe this entity, "dark matter" is used as a kind of placeholder. More knowledge will describe what we're observing.

Mathematical models are useful in guiding our explorations. There is no substitute for observation, however. As you've suggested, models must acquiesce to observations. This happens continuously in physics.

You seem to be saying that scientists are being misguided by the lure of dark matter and dark energy. Here again I invoke the scientific method as insurance that, no matter what dark matter and dark energy ultimately turn out to be, scientists will not be drawn away from the course of knowledge that reveals what is causing the gravitational anomalies we are seeing.
Posted by UMRealist
Member since Feb 2013
35360 posts
Posted on 3/5/17 at 10:56 pm to
Listened to a Joe Rogan podcast recently with NDT and he explained it as actually not necessarily "matter" at all. They don't know what it is or could be. The only reason they know it's there is because the gravity around it. He said a more accurate name for it would be dark gravity, bc at least they know that's there.
Posted by Kentucker
Cincinnati, KY
Member since Apr 2013
19351 posts
Posted on 3/6/17 at 10:02 am to
You're right. We don't have a clue as to what dark matter is. We can only see its effects. That's why I mentioned that the term "dark matter" is only a placeholder name. No one should think that scientists are assigning any other properties to it, whatever it is.

The reason dark matter and dark energy are being used comes from basic physics. Einstein's equation, e=mc2, tells us that everything is either matter or energy depending upon its current state. Matter in motion is energy so energy not in motion is matter. Both exert gravity. Matter tends to be stationary so the term dark matter is used to designate a possible entity that's affecting galaxies and light.

Of course, the common term that's involved in any of this speculation is gravity. Despite hundreds of years of research, thought experiments and math by humanity's greatest minds, we still don't know what gravity is. We are extremely familiar with its effects and can predict it with great accuracy, all without knowing it's composition or cause.

Is it a force or an effect? Is it truly one of four or five basic forces that originated when the Universe was born? Or is it the effect of space upon mass?

Is it a pull or a push? Are there really gravitons that carry a force that binds mass together or does space actually push mass together? We just don't know.

Quantum physics may answer this and other mesmerizing questions. It's fun following our human progress towards solutions.
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