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Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:31 pm to genro
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Apeaking of sane societt, Society is even more atomized, more artifical, with even less emphasis on family, more availability of pornography, more gloriciation of violence and thrill seeking.
The factors that go into making a serial killer seem to have all gotten worse
I disagree. I think all this is giving them outlets to pursue these vices without harming anyone. The serial killers of old did it to get their rocks off in violence and sex. The current ones seem to do it out of glory and press coverage. They don't hide out for months on end unable to control their murderous urges. They go out and do it in a single day, and we always know who did it.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:35 pm to genro
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The factors that go into making a serial killer seem to have all gotten worse
I think the main stimulus for serial killers is opportunity. The bizarre workings of their brains develop a perverse desire to act on a human being. That desire can be sated only temporarily. They will act on it again and again if the opportunity arises or if they can create the scenario themselves.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:36 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
No it's circular because you can't condone what a murdurer does, but you also can't enforce a just punishment.
im not suggesting a debate on whether killing someone who intentionally killed another person is a just punishment, I'm saying operate under the assumption of eye for an eye. If you do, then your position is circular.
So either it's acceptable in our society for someone who killed someone else to live with unequal consequences for their acts, or your argument is circular and is based on your personal, but irrational, preference (which is entirely acceptable).
im not suggesting a debate on whether killing someone who intentionally killed another person is a just punishment, I'm saying operate under the assumption of eye for an eye. If you do, then your position is circular.
So either it's acceptable in our society for someone who killed someone else to live with unequal consequences for their acts, or your argument is circular and is based on your personal, but irrational, preference (which is entirely acceptable).
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:38 pm to sorantable
Why anyone trust the gov't and a jury of "your peers" to effectively deliver justice via the death penalty is beyond me.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:39 pm to sorantable
I always find it interesting that people completely against the death penalty are usually totally in favor of abortion and vice versa.
No commentary on either stance, but an interesting juxtaposition.
No commentary on either stance, but an interesting juxtaposition.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:41 pm to Aubie Spr96
It is extremely difficult to get 12 people to agree to harsh punishments. 99% of the time they reach a compromise for life in prison or some other merciful punishment.
The jury system usually gets the right answer so long as the evidence they consider is accurate and fair.
The jury system usually gets the right answer so long as the evidence they consider is accurate and fair.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:43 pm to Warrior Poet
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It is extremely difficult to get 12 people to agree to harsh punishments. 99% of the time they reach a compromise for life in prison or some other merciful punishment.
Agreed. They didn't give the Colorado shooter the death penalty for god's sake, who in my mind should have been put down the second the ridiculously long delayed verdict was given. Death penalties are hard to give out, although I do think they should be very few, far between, and only reserved for complete monsters who if they got out and had their way would ruthlessly murder around the United States. Not someone who kills their wife over getting pissed off solely at her; those aren't the type who should get the death penalty.
This post was edited on 9/29/15 at 11:45 pm
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:43 pm to Warrior Poet
quote:
No it's circular because you can't condone what a murdurer does, but you also can't enforce a just punishment.
"A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true."
That's circular reasoning.
What you're talking about isn't related.
quote:
im not suggesting a debate on whether killing someone who intentionally killed another person is a just punishment, I'm saying operate under the assumption of eye for an eye. If you do, then your position is circular.
Yes, eye for an eye is circular because the justification is the action.
"He killed someone, therefore it's okay to kill him."
"A did B, therefore B is applicable to A."
quote:
So either it's acceptable in our society for someone who killed someone else to live with unequal consequences for their acts, or your argument is circular and is based on your personal, but irrational, preference (which is entirely acceptable).
Concepts like equality, justice and all things under the sun regarding metaphysical balance are completely subjective. There are, to some people, far worse things than death.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:45 pm to OMLandshark
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I hate abortion, but it is necessary to maintaining a sane society. If I were to transport you to a reality in which Roe vs Wade went in the opposite direction and theoretically no abortions have taken place since then, you'd be begging to come back to this reality. Either we have a mass sterilization force to make sure that people who shouldn't be having kids don't have them, or we put up with the atrocity of abortion. I'm picking the lesser of two evils.
Meh, none of that justifies it IMO. At best, the negative impact abortion has on personal responsibility and maturity offsets the gains of less poor kids.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:47 pm to 3nOut
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I always find it interesting that people completely against the death penalty are usually totally in favor of abortion and vice versa.
No commentary on either stance, but an interesting juxtaposition.
For me it's always a matter of suffering.
A fully-conscious person suffers more than a fetus. (I am only speaking for myself.)
The same reason most people feel more sympathy toward dogs and cats and other furry creatures -- their ability to communicate their pain to us is higher than, let's say, a lizard or insect.
I would rather a million blastocysts died than one five year old.
Hell, trillion, infinite number of blastocysts before a five year old.
Unless, of course, the five year old was already dying or suffering in some way that could not be fixed.
This post was edited on 9/29/15 at 11:51 pm
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:47 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
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Because we're not supposed to be the same as them.
Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer visciously strangled people to death and thdn had sex with their corpses. Dahmer went the extra mile and cut them apart, storing various parts as trophies and EATING others.
We aren't the same as them for painlessly and peacefully relieving ourselves of their company.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:49 pm to Roger Klarvin
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Meh, none of that justifies it IMO. At best, the negative impact abortion has on personal responsibility and maturity offsets the gains of less poor kids.
Utilitarian vs. Idealistic argument.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:51 pm to Roger Klarvin
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Meh, none of that justifies it IMO. At best, the negative impact abortion has on personal responsibility and maturity offsets the gains of less poor kids.
First off, many people don't have the capability to ever be mature or to take personal responsibility. No matter how much you preach to them, they will leach off the system, kill and maim law biding citizens simply because they have what they want, and think they were totally justified in doing it, all while spawning off 10 more people with the same views who will go on and have 10 more kids themselves. The cycle will be never ending. There is no reasoning with these types of people. We have to make sure that they do not breed. Abortion is the most cost effective means of doing this. In fact, if the government was smart, they'd offer 20K to anyone who wishes to be sterilized, complementary on the taxpayers dime. Saves far, far more in the long run than if they pop out 5 kids they can't afford. Abortion is completely justifiable in my scenario.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:52 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer visciously strangled people to death and thdn had sex with their corpses. Dahmer went the extra mile and cut them apart, storing various parts as trophies and EATING others.
The severity of their crimes, and the justification is only for emotional satisfaction.
Trust me, I'd like to see them die. But, if they have no manner in which to defend themselves, I can't condone the state killing them.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:52 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
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Utilitarian vs. Idealistic argument.
Exactly. While I am an idealist at heart, I know my sunshine and daisies scenario is unrealistic. The utilitarian mindset is the only way forward on this issue.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:53 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
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The severity of their crimes, and the justification is only for emotional satisfaction.
What if they escape and kill 30 more people? Someone who is without question an incredible danger to society at large should be put down. Not killing El Chapo for instance was a huge mistake.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:54 pm to 3nOut
quote:
always find it interesting that people completely against the death penalty are usually totally in favor of abortion and vice versa.
No commentary on either stance, but an interesting juxtaposition.
There are so many different views on the value of life that it's tough to pit these ideas against one another.
For instance, I dont view all human life as equal. A fetus doesnt have the same societal value as a five year old, but it has far more value than someone who kills people as a hobby. I support the death penalty because I view the latter form of life as essentially worthless to society, and largely oppose abortion because while it isnt "murder" in my opinion it deprives a future person the chance at life usually for convenience. Such an act sets a terrible precedent for society as a whole regardless of how valuable a fetus is.
This post was edited on 9/29/15 at 11:56 pm
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:58 pm to OMLandshark
I just cant get over the idea of destroying a fetus purely for convenience. It seems so...barbaric.
Posted on 9/29/15 at 11:59 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
What if they escape and kill 30 more people? Someone who is without question an incredible danger to society at large should be put down. Not killing El Chapo for instance was a huge mistake.
What if they do that before ya kill 'em? The threat is always there, the justice system does not allow for a quick process.
Economically it's cheaper to house them because giving them a lawyer and seven years of appeals (sometimes longer) can be pretty damn expensive.
Even El Chapo, the easiest way to keep him from escaping was shipping him to America.
I can't get too deep into it because it's just a fundamental question: Am I willing, myself, to kill someone outside of emotional reasons (someone raped my mom and murdered her so out of rage and vengeance I killed them) for any crime?
My answer will be no. You could convince me economically (say, we sped up the process to those who pleaded guilty, or who were caught on camera with multiple witnesses), or even in an instance where it was necessity (we don't have enough food, someone's gotta go -- let it be the felon) -- but morally and/or philosophically I can't justify it.
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