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Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:02 pm to BamaBravesPackers
Is it too much to say Deboer deserves at least one more year before we start making these massive defeatists judgements about him?
How we have lost this year has been unpleasant but it is literally year 1 still. I don't think it's too much to ask to hold off a little longer
How we have lost this year has been unpleasant but it is literally year 1 still. I don't think it's too much to ask to hold off a little longer
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:24 pm to llfshoals
You’re still quoting things that literally have nothing to do with his current situation or what works in this new era. A laxed coaching style with low accountability won’t work in the SEC, it never has and will be even worse in this new era with more parity.
There’s lots of data to prove that laxed cultures don’t work long term, and lots of data to prove that coaches with significant winning records got chewed up in the SEC (see BK at LSU…had almost all your same stats or even better than DeBoer in terms of lower tier championships, very few losses per year at ND, and he actually outperformed in year 1 in SEC).
The coaches that have the best programs in the country right now don’t have laxed styles (OSU, UGA, Oregon, Texas). You’re right that we couldn’t hire any of those guys, but that doesn’t mean you go hire a coach with a style that has literally never been proven to work with elite talent in the SEC, and pay him $10million a year. DeBoer can beat those guys in a single game, especially with extra prep time, but the grind of beating talented teams 8 out of 12 weeks is different than beating 1-2 good teams.
We have the best AD in the business, so I was trusting his judgment in the hire. I still do and am not saying we should fire the guy at this point, because that isn’t realistic. But we better prepare for a lot of volatility and regularly seeing losses to teams we should beat. That’s what a laxed coaching style with not enough accountability gets you in the SEC. Thats what we got this year, and it’s the only concrete data point we have for DeBoer with elite talent in the SEC. Argue the hypotheticals if you want, but the data is very definitive on how laxed coaching styles work out in the SEC. The only question is how laxed is it, and if he is able to evolve. I’m hopeful he can, but that usually doesn’t happen.
Before the season, I indicated we’d go 9-3 due to transition year. Had UT and OK as losses, but that was before OK became a 1 dimensional team. Losing to Vandy and a run-only OK team is a bad look, and suggests a team that was “laxed.” Feel free to think DeBoer has proven himself as a coach in his current environment, but the truth is the only evidence we have at this point in the SEC is that DeBoers environment leads to losses to inferior teams. I have no reason to believe that won’t continue unless DeBoer changes the work ethic and accountability of his coaching. Time will tell
There’s lots of data to prove that laxed cultures don’t work long term, and lots of data to prove that coaches with significant winning records got chewed up in the SEC (see BK at LSU…had almost all your same stats or even better than DeBoer in terms of lower tier championships, very few losses per year at ND, and he actually outperformed in year 1 in SEC).
The coaches that have the best programs in the country right now don’t have laxed styles (OSU, UGA, Oregon, Texas). You’re right that we couldn’t hire any of those guys, but that doesn’t mean you go hire a coach with a style that has literally never been proven to work with elite talent in the SEC, and pay him $10million a year. DeBoer can beat those guys in a single game, especially with extra prep time, but the grind of beating talented teams 8 out of 12 weeks is different than beating 1-2 good teams.
We have the best AD in the business, so I was trusting his judgment in the hire. I still do and am not saying we should fire the guy at this point, because that isn’t realistic. But we better prepare for a lot of volatility and regularly seeing losses to teams we should beat. That’s what a laxed coaching style with not enough accountability gets you in the SEC. Thats what we got this year, and it’s the only concrete data point we have for DeBoer with elite talent in the SEC. Argue the hypotheticals if you want, but the data is very definitive on how laxed coaching styles work out in the SEC. The only question is how laxed is it, and if he is able to evolve. I’m hopeful he can, but that usually doesn’t happen.
Before the season, I indicated we’d go 9-3 due to transition year. Had UT and OK as losses, but that was before OK became a 1 dimensional team. Losing to Vandy and a run-only OK team is a bad look, and suggests a team that was “laxed.” Feel free to think DeBoer has proven himself as a coach in his current environment, but the truth is the only evidence we have at this point in the SEC is that DeBoers environment leads to losses to inferior teams. I have no reason to believe that won’t continue unless DeBoer changes the work ethic and accountability of his coaching. Time will tell
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:31 pm to BamaBravesPackers
quote:
Bro, you might want to make sure you know about the game before questioning whether others do. Your own post debunks itself, because DeBoer’s previous winning was largely against a bad schedule, and others have already posted how DeBoer’s team often under performed against worse competition. That’s what happens when you have a lax culture. Everyone gets up for the big games, but good coaching has teams prepared for almost every game.
The “DeBoer has won everywhere” argument is very superficial with zero analytical thought. DeBoer has only won with underrated recruits that generally had chips on their shoulders. He’s never won big or coached a team full of blue chip millionaires. A laxed coaching style can work with a team full of overachievers trying to prove themselves, it will never work with 18-20 year old millionaires. There’s a reason why NFL requires 3 years out of highschool, and it isn’t just physical traits. Newly minted millionaires who haven’t matured often implode, and you can’t just “show up and play” in football the way superstars can in basketball or baseball. A laxed coaching style won’t seriously compete for NCs unless all the pieces fall into place with a bunch of A+ blue chip work ethic guys that now have money. Those are going to be very, very rare individuals and we’d need 22 of them. We’re going to win some big games, and lose ones we shouldn’t, just like this year. No one should be surprised at this year’s results after reading Crimson K’s post. That’s exactly what a laxed culture gets you in the SEC. DeBoer can get away with that in conferences that only have 2 teams with decent recruiting, but the SEC has 10 teams with decent talent every year. That means 2-3 losses against teams you should beat.
Before attacking another poster, maybe make sure you know what you are talking about.
So who do you suggest we bring in? Lane Kiffin, the guy who lost to Kentucky, Florida and LSU with a superior QB under center? Dan Lanning? The guy who's 0-3 vs Deboer and just barely escaped a Wisconsin team we destroyed? Sark? The guy who's 0-2 vs Deboer and barely beat Arkansas and Vandy with a superior QB to work with compared to Deboer? Not to mention went 5-7 in his first season at Texas with back to back top 3 classes against an awful Big-12 schedule. And don't look now, but Kirby, the "hard nosed coach who was a play away from losing to Kentucky, embarrassed by Milroe and annihilated by Ole Miss", should be down 23-0 against a trash ACC team. He's a dropped TD pass, missed field goal and a failed 4th and 1 conversion in FG range away from being down big to Tech.
Give me a couple of names that would waltz in here and turn the dumbest QB in the history of sports into a world beater. Give me a couple of names who'd take this team (excluding the 40 players who transferred or went pro) that needed a miracle play to beat an awful Auburn team and had to fight off a comeback against a 4 win Arkansas (plus was nearly upset by South Florida) WITH Nick Saban running the show. Dude was two or three plays away from dropping three games against absolute dog shite teams and he's the greatest coach of all time.
So let's start the process over again because literally any other coach not named Deboer would be 12-0 right now with Jalen Milroe under center
What do you think Deboer's record would be with even a JPW under center right now? Or a McCarron? I guarantee you JPW would have seen all those wide open receivers against Tennessee that Milroe couldn't.
If the GOAT came close to shitting the bed against three trash teams last year, what in the blue frick makes you think we wouldn't see a drop off this season?
I can only imagine the horrific things you said about Saban when he "lost to a ULM team that Mike Shula destroyed".
This post was edited on 11/29/24 at 7:50 pm
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:38 pm to BamaBravesPackers
For people who think Lanning at Oregon is some kind of dictatorial hard arse, from an ESPN story last year:
"He's a players' coach," wide receiver Tez Johnson said, referring to Lanning's ethos to give players a voice, even in-game decision-making.
Lanning, his players and fellow coaches say, is someone who lives and breathes football, while also constantly wanting to tether parts of the game to his real-life interests. A movie and music buff, it's no surprise some of those pop cultural references make their way into team meetings and motivational material.
"He's still got that young personality and still enjoys other things outside of football," Bo Nix said. "I think sometimes we see head coaches as strictly football, but he's still a young coach in this profession and he still enjoys other things outside of football and X's O's. He's knowledgeable about a bunch of things that us players are knowledgeable about, so he can kind of connect with us that way."
And honestly, if it takes a non-lax hard arse to motivate millionaires then this crap is broken worse than I thought.
"He's a players' coach," wide receiver Tez Johnson said, referring to Lanning's ethos to give players a voice, even in-game decision-making.
Lanning, his players and fellow coaches say, is someone who lives and breathes football, while also constantly wanting to tether parts of the game to his real-life interests. A movie and music buff, it's no surprise some of those pop cultural references make their way into team meetings and motivational material.
"He's still got that young personality and still enjoys other things outside of football," Bo Nix said. "I think sometimes we see head coaches as strictly football, but he's still a young coach in this profession and he still enjoys other things outside of football and X's O's. He's knowledgeable about a bunch of things that us players are knowledgeable about, so he can kind of connect with us that way."
And honestly, if it takes a non-lax hard arse to motivate millionaires then this crap is broken worse than I thought.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:41 pm to 1BamaRTR
quote:
Is it too much to say Deboer deserves at least one more year before we start making these massive defeatists judgements about him? How we have lost this year has been unpleasant but it is literally year 1 still. I don't think it's too much to ask to hold off a little longer
That has been my approach for most of the year (was mad about bad situational awareness early in the year, but those can be overcome) and I was hoping that it was more singular player holding us back at QB or defensive scheme needing time for players to develop.
My one concern about DeBoer from his opening press conference was a lack of intensity, but there was a lot of talk about him trying to “keep the standard” and he talked about “doing the work.” But after both Vandy and OK, he complemented practices and said the team put in the work. That was the 1st clue that his view of putting in the work may not be what successful SEC coaches understand to be putting in the work, but I was still waiting for confirmation and hoping it was something else vs. work ethic issue. Crimson K’s post was confirmation, it’s a work ethic issue. Those don’t typically end well, and usually they’re just a matter of time (Shula, Avery Johnson in Bball, etc.). Hope it’s not as bad as it seems, but doesn’t look good from what I can tell.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:43 pm to InkStainedWretch
Fans are going have to accept that coaching isn’t going work like it used to work. Players will not be around long enough to enjoy their journey like it used to work. Or you just need to become an NFL fan and just watch college football if you got nothing else to do on a Fall Saturday.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:45 pm to Diego Ricardo
Even the NFL product has deteriorated in my opinion.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:49 pm to PuertoRicanBlaze
quote:
I can only imagine the horrific things you said about Saban when he "lost to a ULM team that Mike Shula destroyed".
None, because it was obvious he inherited a terrible culture and was changing it. I wanted him to kick Hall off the team, but Saban just kept doing week to week discipline that season. Winning wasn’t nearly as important as setting the culture that season.
This season, we’ve done neither of those. That doesn’t point to good things long term, but I do believe DeBoer is a great Xs and Os coach. We’re not going to fall off a cliff, but I think we’ll have to expect more losses to average/bad teams than what we’d typically tolerate and not sure we’ll have the discipline/work ethic to win 3 straight postseason games against really good teams. I’m just hoping he recognizes the SEC is a whole new ballgame and increases his intensity and the program’s work ethic to level up to it.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:51 pm to InkStainedWretch
quote:
And honestly, if it takes a non-lax hard arse to motivate millionaires then this crap is broken worse than I thought.
You can be a player’s coach and still demand accountability and work ethic. I was holding out hope that DeBoer was one of those. Hopefully he still can be, but the evidence is pointing the other way at this point.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:57 pm to BamaBravesPackers
I have said repeatedly that the biggest message he needs to get is that there are no gimmes, ever, period, mic drop, in the SEC. If he will understand that, the work will come.
I really think the man had zero clue what he was getting into, both at Alabama and in the SEC, because you can’t know or understand until you are actually here.
I really think the man had zero clue what he was getting into, both at Alabama and in the SEC, because you can’t know or understand until you are actually here.
This post was edited on 11/29/24 at 8:05 pm
Posted on 11/29/24 at 7:58 pm to BamaBravesPackers
Agreed....you can have a player led team but he still has to be THE voice. If I like how it's going, good. If not, we are doing it my way. Be interesting if Deboer alters it at all.
I will say this, his answers in any press conference are the most non informational, generic, boring comments ever.
I will say this, his answers in any press conference are the most non informational, generic, boring comments ever.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 8:02 pm to BamaBravesPackers
quote:
You can be a player’s coach and still demand accountability and work ethic. I was holding out hope that DeBoer was one of those. Hopefully he still can be, but the evidence is pointing the other way at this point.
I promise we are more in agreement than disagreement but I think coaching moving forward will by necessity move toward the DeBoer model because for all intents and purposes the coaches and players are equal partners in this stuff now. I think that sticks in the craw of a lot of our fan base because our culture for generations now has had a lot more moving parts than W’s and L’s on the field.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 8:04 pm to llfshoals
quote:
He won with teams who weren’t supposed to win with inferior talent.
In the PAC12.
Now, he's losing games he shouldn't lose with superior talent.
Oh, and becoming his players' bitch.
I'd love for him to prove me wrong, but I just don't see him working out, here, and we're probably stuck with him for 2 more seasons, at least.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 8:09 pm to InkStainedWretch
Good analysis
Posted on 11/29/24 at 8:14 pm to 11and18gggchamp
Meh … none of us knows with metaphysical certitude what is going to happen down the road. I’m waiting to see what happens when we have a competent quarterback driving the car.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 8:24 pm to Chancellor
quote:
Oh, and becoming his players' bitch.
You could argue that happened to the best coach in history last year. However, we all know he would have fixed it over 1-2 more seasons if he had the energy.
We’ll see if DeBoer can evolve to his new circumstances, but I’ve gone from cautiously optimistic to cautiously pessimistic at this point. I’m just hoping things don’t “hit the fan” tomorrow, due to our defense being a “tin horn” that it easily goes through.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 8:33 pm to InkStainedWretch
quote:
I promise we are more in agreement than disagreement but I think coaching moving forward will by necessity move toward the DeBoer model because for all intents and purposes the coaches and players are equal partners in this stuff now. I think that sticks in the craw of a lot of our fan base because our culture for generations now has had a lot more moving parts than W’s and L’s on the field.
I agree that you will have to be a player’s coach in the new era. Saban’s original style from 2007-2008 won’t work.
The best NFL teams still have good accountability, but having the best QB helps a lot as well. Look at the intensity of the Detroit Lions coach and all the Bama players they have. They took over the NFC north from my beloved Packers.
Coaches that can figure out how to have discipline that players desire, and understand that it will make them great are the ones that will succeed in this environment. Listening to the players talking about trying to change stuff up by going to class, tucking in shirts, etc. after the Vandy loss was pretty telling about which way DeBoer’s culture leans.
It’s too late to try to correct things after they result in a loss, and once winning starts back you let things slip. Think Saban indicated that things were too focused on results with this team, and all evidence backs that up. You shouldn’t need a loss to motivate you to do things required to win throughout the week. That’s bad leadership, which starts with coaching
This post was edited on 11/29/24 at 8:35 pm
Posted on 11/29/24 at 8:38 pm to BamaBravesPackers
Good stuff.
Posted on 11/29/24 at 9:44 pm to BamaBravesPackers
Current events make one wonder whether all is peaches and cream in Athens right now.
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