Started By
Message
Articles on Difficulty of O-Line Recruiting and Multi-Sport Recruits
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:30 am
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:30 am
Difficulty of recruiting Olinemen - (Athletic paywall)
I quoted the relevant general info, but there are a lot of really good personal anecdotes from quality coaches in there about their individual experiences. Well worth a full read if you got it.
I quoted the relevant general info, but there are a lot of really good personal anecdotes from quality coaches in there about their individual experiences. Well worth a full read if you got it.
quote:
This week when your favorite team announces its signing class, or when you hear about the four- or five-star recruit that your school did or did not get, remember this number: 2.4.
That is the average star ranking of the 15 offensive linemen voted to the Pro Bowl last year who were evaluated in the era of the recruiting star system. None of them were ranked as five-star prospects; four were four-star guys — the same number as there were zero-star players. Joe Thomas, the best offensive tackle of his era, went to 10 Pro Bowls in his 11 seasons. Thomas once was ranked as the nation’s No. 18 offensive tackle prospect. None of those 17 graded ahead of him went on to start in the NFL as tackles. From the 2015 signing class, prospects who are seniors now, Clemson’s Mitch Hyatt is the only four- or five-star O-line recruit (according to 247Sports) to make first-team all-conference.
quote:
“If you can get an O-line coach to tell you the truth, I bet they’ll say of the 16 or so linemen they have on scholarship, that there are at least five they totally missed on,” says Kent McLeod, Duke’s director of player personnel.
quote:
Mike Sherman, the former Green Bay Packers head coach, put together perhaps the best O-line class in the modern era of recruiting in 2010 at Texas A&M. Among what was ranked as the nation’s No. 16 class were three future first-round offensive linemen: Jake Matthews, Luke Joeckel and Cedric Ogbuehi. “We had criteria — does he fit our program?” Sherman says. “We wanted to make sure he had the height and arm length and we wanted to see his athleticism. I always loved it to watch him play basketball to see how he jumps and moves lateral. The attitude part was also big. Does he want to be an O-lineman, and not because he has to be an O-lineman?” Sherman tried to stick to his criteria. His old boss in Green Bay once told him, “There’s always an exception, but you don’t want to turn around and have a team full of exceptions. You have to remember why you opened that door for the exception.”
quote:
You just don’t see ’em in pass protection against enough good guys,” Bloomgren says, adding that it’s also tough to gauge because you don’t know what they’re being taught. “In pass protection sometimes you just get out-athleted and guys don’t know how to compensate. For tackle play, it’s an elite dance.”
quote:
“Kids have gotten so much bigger these days. Everybody thinks a guy that weighs 310 as a high school junior is a good thing. I think that’s a negative. He’s gonna have knee problems. They’re not athletic. They may look the part, but they may not be really athletes. Coaches are usually trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. You have this shift where kids are trying to look like at 16 what they’re looking like at 21, and I think it’s setting ’em back. You also have people pushing the single-sport thing and these coaches are idiots. I played with very few guys on the O-line in the NFL that didn’t letter in another sport in high school. That athleticism in basketball or baseball or running track carries over. Thinking on the move always helped me in football.”
This post was edited on 12/18/18 at 11:46 am
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:38 am to Tider95
Interesting thx for posting. Seems I've heard Saban mention the positives of basketball as well. I imagine, for dual sports, it's like changing up your routine in lifting to keep from plateauing.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:41 am to BlackPawnMartyr
Yep, there is another article on the Athletic that talks about these two guys who use track #'s to evaluate athleticism and it has so far proven to be pretty effective. Across all of the articles from a bunch of different quality writers it has been hammered that playing more than one sport benefits players and helps them both in recruiting and as football players on this level and the next.
Recruiting Company Using Track Stats to evaluate ( athletic paywall)
Recruiting Company Using Track Stats to evaluate ( athletic paywall)
quote:
What began with old media guides and a little curiosity has become an emerging business that is trying to make college football recruiting smarter. The spreadsheet that Branstad started has evolved into a database of nearly 60,000 current and former football players. His company, Tracking Football, is attempting to introduce analytics to the recruiting process using verified track data and that historical context to help identify the most athletically gifted recruits.
quote:
Tracking Football became an NCAA-approved scouting service three years ago and has since partnered with more than 20 FBS programs. Seven of their clients — Clemson, Texas A&M, Texas, Oregon, Michigan, Florida State and Washington — have top-15 ranked recruiting classes for 2019, according to the 247Sports Composite. The company is capitalizing on a booming time for college football support staff growth while trying to convince set-in-their-ways coaches to let data play a role in the talent identification and evaluation process.
quote:
He went deeper. Branstad connected with Frank Bogaert, a consultant and mathematician from Belgium who helped him establish the statistical correlation between track and field success and football success. He teamed with Aaron Hunter, a longtime friend and former Indiana University football player who became his co-founder, to start adding entire teams and recruiting classes to their data set. And the three worked together to develop an efficient system for synthesizing all of that data. What they invented was their Player Athletic Index, or PAI, a proprietary metric that uses all of that historical data to establish a rating system for Division I football athleticism customized for every position group. Players are scored on a scale of 0.0 to 5.0 based on their track and field performances, position, height, weight and how those combined traits compare historically. By using their backlog of NFL and college data to establish these models, they’re providing college coaches with a resource that can help identify, verify and compare current high school prospects.
quote:
The rating system compares football players against the Division I standard at their position. A player with a 3.0 PAI score is considered above average. Even a 2.5 is a solid score. Anything above 4.0 is considered outstanding, and less than 2 percent of the nearly 60,000 players they’ve studied have earned a perfect 5.0 score. The king of all 5.0 PAI athletes? Bo Jackson. Baseball, sprints, hurdles, shot put, discus, high jump, long jump, triple jump, pole vault, decathlon — Bo did it all as a high schooler in 1982 and did it at an impossibly elite level. If you’re creating an athletic score and Jackson isn’t on top, Branstad said, you’re doing something wrong. Over the past five years, the average PAI score of NFL first-round draft picks is 4.0, and the average for all draft picks is 3.6. The average Power 5 football signee had a PAI score of 3.2. The average Group of 5 signee had a 2.7 score, and the FCS average is roughly 2.3. The system yielding those results is actually impressive when you consider no football-specific metrics are factored in.
quote:
The track and field data that Branstad and his buddies have been collecting for more than a decade are especially useful for a few important reasons. For one, track times and field events are universal. The 100-meter dash is run the same way in every state, and it’s run the same way every year. And because that’s always been the case, these results hold up over time, from generation to generation. A football recruit’s proficiency in basketball, baseball or wrestling isn’t quite as easy to quantify. There’s too much variance in their roles and in the quality of competition from team to team and state to state. With track, it’s straightforward. And for college recruiters, there’s a more implicit aspect in play here: They prefer multi-sport athletes who are competitive in more than just football. In Tracking Football’s study of the class of 2019, 73 percent of recruits who hold offers have participated in multiple sports, and 56 percent have competed in track and field. “We would really struggle to ever sign a kid who’s not a multi-sport kid,” a Power 5 recruiting coordinator told The Athletic, speaking on the condition of anonymity for competitive reasons. “If you’re a really good athlete, you should want to be a really good athlete. Now, there’s some in every class, but typically that’s not what we want.”
quote:
They’ve understandably made it their mission, too, to continue pushing back against the trend of specialization. Kyler Murray is clearly a rare two-sport phenom who possesses terrific speed. But he admitted recently he never wanted to run track. Fellow Heisman finalists Tua Tagovailoa and Dwayne Haskins have 0.0 PAI scores because they also skipped track and field. Tracking Football continues to publish studies on topics such as how many NFL draft picks played multiple sports in high school (88 percent this year) or how many high school All-Americans have track backgrounds (63 percent). They recognize, when it comes to advocating for the value of multi-sport participation and its correlation to football, they still have a lot of people to convince.
This post was edited on 12/18/18 at 11:45 am
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:56 am to Bear88
Was listening to local radio this morning, and Blaine Bishop (sp?) was aske how he approached his son's development in sports. He said his son played flag football until 11 but he was mainly a soccer player. Jim Harbaugh has gone on record saying he wished more football players played soccer growing up.
Imo, soccer is a sport thad should be played early b/c if a kid moves on to another sport, then they will still reaped the benefits. If they stay with soccer, they would be miles ahead of someone that started late. Soccer played at early age is important b/c a player must be comfortable with the ball at their feet (first touch, passing, dribbling, etc.). At La Masia all they do is pass the ball and dribbling.
Imo, soccer is a sport thad should be played early b/c if a kid moves on to another sport, then they will still reaped the benefits. If they stay with soccer, they would be miles ahead of someone that started late. Soccer played at early age is important b/c a player must be comfortable with the ball at their feet (first touch, passing, dribbling, etc.). At La Masia all they do is pass the ball and dribbling.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:58 am to RollTide4Ever
Totally agree, soccer and basketball are sports you can play at a young age and they will help you no matter what sport you play in the future.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 12:00 pm to Tider95
I would say bball is way more dependent on athleticism than soccer, though. There's been HOFers that picked up bball late: Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan. I think that's the case with the Greek Freek and maybe even Steve Nash. Might depend on the position, though.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 12:24 pm to Tider95
quote:
This week when your favorite team announces its signing class, or when you hear about the four- or five-star recruit that your school did or did not get, remember this number: 2.4.
That is the average star ranking of the 15 offensive linemen voted to the Pro Bowl last year who were evaluated in the era of the recruiting star system. None of them were ranked as five-star prospects; four were four-star guys — the same number as there were zero-star players. Joe Thomas, the best offensive tackle of his era, went to 10 Pro Bowls in his 11 seasons. Thomas once was ranked as the nation’s No. 18 offensive tackle prospect. From the 2015 signing class, prospects who are seniors now, Clemson’s Mitch Hyatt is the only four- or five-star O-line recruit (according to 247Sports) to make first-team all-conference.
I don't necessarily disagree with the premise of this article, since I can't read the whole thing I'm sure he goes deeper in some areas. That being said, what I've quoted is a pretty bad data set to use. The pro bowl is more of a popularity contest than who is the best at each position, especially since the fans get a third of the votes. Not to mention some players turn it down. Also I don't know why you woud only take one year of data. I would have probably done all-pro team selections over a 5-10 year period.
Looking at 1 year and looking at only seniors is also not that useful because the best usually leave after 3 years. For instance that means Jonah Williams (if he leaves) or Cam Robinson would be missed had he chosen to use 2014 or 2016.
Again I don't think he is wrong, but I don't see much value in that data.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 12:28 pm to Carlton
He goes into more detail around that quote, but the basic premise and reason he chose 2015 is that if you go look, that entire 4 and 5 star pool has guys rated super high that didn't pan out at all (that includes players who left last year. He wasn't saying that he only counted seniors in college, just that that class had 4 full years of development and the article mentions that it takes time to develop O-linemen). Of course there is a lot of variance year to year, but his broader point is that O-line has tremendous volatility. It sticks out more because I block quoted it by itself, but in the article it works.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 12:37 pm to Tider95
This post was edited on 12/18/18 at 12:38 pm
Posted on 12/18/18 at 12:38 pm to Carlton
He didn't do a 5-10 year sample sadly, but now that you mention it I might look at that tommorrow, just because work here at UA is dead with the students gone and I need entertainment beyond waiting for signees.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:16 pm to Tider95
To me the entire premise is flawed, and coaches pay lip service to the idea of multi sport athletes rather then practice it. Few of the top QB are multi sport anymore,for example. I'm also not sure that skill players messing around in spring track season is really "multi sport" either btw. I kind of get wrestling as a winter sport as an off-season condition program, but wrestlers are constantly getting significantly injured to the point that it would give me some pause pushing that for a D1 football prospect.
If you look at elite sports all around the world, off season strength/conditioning/flexibility with sport specific skill development is now the norm rather then having multi sport athletes. The idea that QB/RB/WR are better off dabbling in spring track rather the weight training, film/technique study, and 7v7 is asinine for the elite football athletes anymore.
If you look at elite sports all around the world, off season strength/conditioning/flexibility with sport specific skill development is now the norm rather then having multi sport athletes. The idea that QB/RB/WR are better off dabbling in spring track rather the weight training, film/technique study, and 7v7 is asinine for the elite football athletes anymore.
Posted on 12/18/18 at 11:26 pm to droliver
They do both of those things. The idea isn't that they don't do anything football related outside of summer/fall/spring ball, it is that they are doing something outside of football that challenges them athletically along with other off-season work.
Qb's are a rare exception, most skill players/linemen are doing some kind of track and field event because they enjoy competing and as a byproduct it presents a different set of challenges than football. Specialization isn't necessary when the quality of coaching is so significantly better in college than most high schools. It's better for a recruit to be well rounded and athletic in more than just what they need for football coming in than to specialize in one sport where once they get to the next level they will most likely have to be taught everything again. It's also important to realize that the multi-sport stuff is talking about your average recruit not some kid from IMG or Carroll lake who have facilities and coaches that are comparable to a FCS school.
Qb's are a rare exception, most skill players/linemen are doing some kind of track and field event because they enjoy competing and as a byproduct it presents a different set of challenges than football. Specialization isn't necessary when the quality of coaching is so significantly better in college than most high schools. It's better for a recruit to be well rounded and athletic in more than just what they need for football coming in than to specialize in one sport where once they get to the next level they will most likely have to be taught everything again. It's also important to realize that the multi-sport stuff is talking about your average recruit not some kid from IMG or Carroll lake who have facilities and coaches that are comparable to a FCS school.
This post was edited on 12/18/18 at 11:29 pm
Posted on 12/19/18 at 1:01 am to Tider95
I have never seen a more TLDR thread
Latest Alabama News
Popular
Back to top

5







