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Posted on 7/8/20 at 11:30 pm to stomp
quote:
Not so fast...
Um, no offense, but an article referencing two patients (one elderly and the other "middle age") should not be used as evidence. That's a ridiculously small number to consider when studying this virus.
Why even link this?
Posted on 7/8/20 at 11:32 pm to TideSaint
quote:
But I do find it interesting you completely ignored my comments about your daughter and her education experience.
Didn’t mean to intentionally ignore it. I didn’t respond to it because it is a very personal sore spot for me. Yes, it is destroying some of what should be the best times of her life and I would do ANYTHING to change it. But the decisions are out of our hands. I’m thankful that right now, Bama is at least attempting some live classes. Nobody has any answers and certainly no good ones so everyone is trying to do the best they can to keep people safe with the information they have. I want things to be normal but they aren’t going to be for some time. Ignore it and pretend things are normal? So then she brings it home and accidentally kills one of her grandparents. I’m not burdening her with that kind of guilt. If you’ve got a better idea, I’m all ears. Your question wasn’t probably intended to be, but it feels a little bit like a Landon Dickerson blind side cheap shot.
Posted on 7/8/20 at 11:33 pm to stomp
quote:
A lot of people are "recovering" on paper but not without life changing problems
What is a lot to you? 0.01%? 0.05%?
That's the numbers you are talking about. Not full percentage points, tenths of a percentage point.
Posted on 7/8/20 at 11:37 pm to phil4bama
quote:
Didn’t mean to intentionally ignore it. I didn’t respond to it because it is a very personal sore spot for me.
So you ignored it. It's cool.
quote:
Ignore it and pretend things are normal? So then she brings it home and accidentally kills one of her grandparents. I’m not burdening her with that kind of guilt. If you’ve got a better idea, I’m all ears. Your question wasn’t probably intended to be, but it feels a little bit like a Landon Dickerson blind side cheap shot.
At what point do you decide the future of our society is more important than our past? You don't want your daughter to bring the virus to her grandparents, but want her to succeed in life. Have you asked her grandparents where they stand on the issue? I bet you even money they'd choose her future over their well being.
And who's to say they would even get sick? My argument doesn't say to kill the vulnerable. I specifically said to treat them. Most would be fine. Some wouldn't. That's life.
This post was edited on 7/8/20 at 11:41 pm
Posted on 7/8/20 at 11:45 pm to wm72
quote:
I'm also not sure I would make a blanket statement that only US hospitals and none in a European country would have any financial interest in caring for covid patients.
Considering our hospitals get an automatic $50K for treating a Coronavirus case I'd say you're take is laughably naive.
quote:
However, that our health care system is so broken to begin with compared to the rest of the first world could give some credence to your theory. It would certainly not be the first example where we can't trust any one here serving investors and stockholders to do the right thing.
Yes, making people wait months for routine appointments is definitely the way to go.
This post was edited on 7/8/20 at 11:47 pm
Posted on 7/9/20 at 12:55 am to TideSaint
There have been multiple studies that have looked at this. Nothing is definitive, but there is certainly evidence that asymptomatic people can suffer long-term damage:
Prevalence of Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Infection
CT imaging and clinical course of asymptomatic cases with COVID-19 pneumonia at admission in Wuhan, China
Disclaimer, the second link is a study from China, but was published in the Journal of Infection.
The conclusion of both of these papers is that asymptomatic people need to be monitored a lot closer using chest imaging to check for potential lung damage.
These risks are, to me, even more troubling than the more overt dangers of Covid. I'd like to know a lot more about them as the date of sending my kids to school rapidly approaches.
Prevalence of Asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 Infection
quote:
ABSTRACT
Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) has spread rapidly throughout the world since the first cases of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) were observed in December 2019 in Wuhan, China. It has been suspected that infected persons who remain asymptomatic play a significant role in the ongoing pandemic, but their relative number and effect have been uncertain. The authors sought to review and synthesize the available evidence on asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection. Asymptomatic persons seem to account for approximately 40% to 45% of SARS-CoV-2 infections, and they can transmit the virus to others for an extended period, perhaps longer than 14 days. Asymptomatic infection may be associated with subclinical lung abnormalities, as detected by computed tomography. Because of the high risk for silent spread by asymptomatic persons, it is imperative that testing programs include those without symptoms. To supplement conventional diagnostic testing, which is constrained by capacity, cost, and its one-off nature, innovative tactics for public health surveillance, such as crowdsourcing digital wearable data and monitoring sewage sludge, might be helpful.
CT imaging and clinical course of asymptomatic cases with COVID-19 pneumonia at admission in Wuhan, China
quote:
The cases recruited in this study were all asymptomatic patients with COVID-19 pneumonia, which were confirmed by positive results of SARS-COV-2 nucleic acid testing and abnormal findings in CT imaging. The predominant feature of CT findings in asymptomatic patients with COVID-19 pneumonia was ground glass opacity with peripheral distribution, unilateral location and, mostly involving one or two lobes, often combined with subpleural curviliner line, fine reticulation, air bronchogram, halo sign or vascular enlargement signs.
Disclaimer, the second link is a study from China, but was published in the Journal of Infection.
The conclusion of both of these papers is that asymptomatic people need to be monitored a lot closer using chest imaging to check for potential lung damage.
These risks are, to me, even more troubling than the more overt dangers of Covid. I'd like to know a lot more about them as the date of sending my kids to school rapidly approaches.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 6:10 am to mre
quote:
There have been multiple studies that have looked at this. Nothing is definitive, but there is certainly evidence that asymptomatic people can suffer long-term damage:
No need to bother with TS. His mind is made up and he is not ready to accept information that doesn't validate his opinion.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 6:16 am to TideSaint
quote:
At what point do you decide the future of our society is more important than our past? You don't want your daughter to bring the virus to her grandparents, but want her to succeed in life. Have you asked her grandparents where they stand on the issue? I bet you even money they'd choose her future over their well being.
And who's to say they would even get sick? My argument doesn't say to kill the vulnerable. I specifically said to treat them. Most would be fine. Some wouldn't. That's life.
Who am I to get to play God? It’s not my place to say whose life we gamble to get back to “normal.” It’s all fine and dandy to have this conversation so coolly in a vacuum with no skin in the game but what do you consider acceptable risk for your own loved ones? There’s minimal chance you get struck by lightning but knowing that, do you still intentionally stay outside during a thunderstorm? No, you don’t, because you can further reduce your risk by using some common sense and taking some small, perhaps inconvenient precautions. With Covid, the precautions are a little more inconvenient and more pervasive, but if it keeps more people alive and in good health, I’m willing to make that sacrifice with the hope that this isn’t forever, that we will figure it out and overcome it. Every day brings us closer to an effective treatment and/or vaccine. Until then, I’m not going to hide cowering in a cave but I’m not going to play outside in the thunderstorm either or ask you to. The sooner that everyone accepts that this isn’t going away, that it’s serious, and that we can do some things to minimize it’s impact on society, the sooner we can start figuring out how to make things work in as safe and as normal a manner as possible. Some things will be a little different, some will be a lot different. Some things won’t be manageable for now. That’s the new reality. And I’m ok with that because your life or my daughter’s life or anyone’s isn’t mine to gamble with, no matter how much the odds are in my favor. Because if it were your loved one who died, it wouldn’t make it any more acceptable or less painful.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 6:20 am to TideSaint
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But cowering in fear inside our homes is the American spirit?
I haven’t been cowering in fear in my home, nor has anyone I know. I get out of the house nearly every day.
Not sure your point on the AIDS vaccine when I never mentioned anything about a vaccine.
quote:
Other countries aren't testing nearly as much as we are.
Ever stop to think that that is the case because those other countries have done a better job containing the virus? And testing is just one part of the formula I mentioned. Where is our tracing and isolating?
Posted on 7/9/20 at 6:21 am to TideSaint
quote:
I'm telling you what has to happen for us as a society to get over this pandemic. I'm not promoting it like a Big Mac.
Oh OK, so you don't want millions of people to die, it's just a sacrifice you're willing to make. That definitely makes it better.
And let's save it with the insinuations that I am not considering my own child's best interests because I don't share your bullshite world view. You can frick right on off with that. Yes I'm pissed off about how they are handling school for the fall, but as was alluded to earlier in the thread, none of these school districts thought that there were going to be any serious problems based on the progress made by mid-May. But then that progress was erased because my governor, the dipshit yokel with a farming degree who thinks he's a doctor, decided to reverse course. Apparently he felt like he'd gain MAGA bonus points by winning the race to reopen. Now by early July we are starting to see that that was a huge mistake. The economy hasn't rebounded, people are refusing to voluntarily take even small measures to reduce transmissions, new daily cases have skyrocketed, hospitalizations are now spiking, and the school districts are in full blown panic mode.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:06 am to stomp
Posted on 7/9/20 at 8:16 am to SummerOfGeorge
Good points in that article . I agree the problems will probably not be at school but what they and the community do away from school will eventually decide what is open and closed . It is more necessary obviously for elementary students to be at school bc parents need to work and middle and high school can be more flexible
Posted on 7/9/20 at 9:12 am to Bear88
Posted on 7/9/20 at 10:02 am to Bear88
If a flue epidemic is a tornado in it's coming and going, this Covid-19 phenomenon is a slow crawling CAT 5 Hurricane in comparison. Unfortunately, there is no radar to tell us where we are in its destructive journey. Most feel like this virus could still be offshore and we haven't even seen landfall yet. Many are still predicting this plague to pick up speed and become even more destructive in the fall.
When Florida typically sees one of these things coming they board up everything in sight and then either get out of town or they get low until it spins itself out of harm's way. In either scenario, longterm goals and life as we knew it are not the hot topics of the day.
I'm not sure why so many don't feel that survival mode yet, but if it's true this thing hasn't even made landfall yet, one thing will be a fact, we will all eventually get there.
In the meantime, I hope most of us have the sense to board up your house, make every single decision about what's best for your family's survival, and get low.
When Florida typically sees one of these things coming they board up everything in sight and then either get out of town or they get low until it spins itself out of harm's way. In either scenario, longterm goals and life as we knew it are not the hot topics of the day.
I'm not sure why so many don't feel that survival mode yet, but if it's true this thing hasn't even made landfall yet, one thing will be a fact, we will all eventually get there.
In the meantime, I hope most of us have the sense to board up your house, make every single decision about what's best for your family's survival, and get low.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 10:42 am to bamameister
Posted on 7/9/20 at 11:07 am to stomp
Listening to a UAB doc. He said their problem is the chronically ill patients that dont go home for months. These numbers are stacking up over time. He said they might get 2 or 3 a week, but since they dont go home. its slowly taking up a large amount of their space, doctors, nurses, supplies, etc. He said right now they can handle it, but its not sustainable. And, he said they are expecting another spike in a couple of weeks. So, they might be keeping more patients from dying, but its also creating other problems that are mounting.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 2:37 pm to stomp
And with a 15 day average stay for COVID that is only reduced to 11 days with Remdesivir, you can see the UAB doc's point.
Posted on 7/9/20 at 5:16 pm to IB4bama
quote:
Listening to a UAB doc. He said their problem is the chronically ill patients that dont go home for months. These numbers are stacking up over time. He said they might get 2 or 3 a week, but since they dont go home. its slowly taking up a large amount of their space, doctors, nurses, supplies, etc. He said right now they can handle it, but its not sustainable. And, he said they are expecting another spike in a couple of weeks. So, they might be keeping more patients from dying, but its also creating other problems that are mounting.
This came up either in April or May when many in medical profession were debating how to best utilize resources. I believe some hospitals in Chicago and maybe NYC were talking about no recitation for covid patients. To much risk and waste of resources.
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