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re: Where do you rank Chubb in UGA RB history?
Posted on 10/3/17 at 6:25 pm to fibonaccisquared
Posted on 10/3/17 at 6:25 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
That's just not accurate though... the floor of today's SEC caliber athletes is higher than the "average" athlete in Herschel's era.
So, by that thinking the worst SEC team would just go out and win title after title if they were zapped back a couple of decades? Unlikely. Hell, they probably couldn't even compete with Jimmy Johnson's Hurricanes, which are much closer in time to Herschel than to today.
Beyond that, "average" depends on what you're grading them on: raw ability? Training and diet? Better steroids? Better equipment? Are you correcting for rule changes that protect skill players? The only way to really tell who has "higher caliber athletes" is to take guys from each era at their prime, put them on the same regimens, have them play the same game with the same rules, and see how it all works out.
quote:
It's the same argument that likely puts MJ at the top of the world in basketball for the foreseeable future, no matter how good Lebron might be today... if you're asking me who is/was the better athlete, it's Lebron all day.
Lebron is probably a much worse athlete than Jordan. He's probably stronger, but that's about it. Run them through a test of overall athleticism: speed, stamina, strength, flexibility, hand-eye coordination, etc., and Jordan would very likely win in a walk.
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Posted on 10/3/17 at 6:30 pm to FaCubeItches
quote:
Lebron is probably a much worse athlete than Jordan. He's probably stronger, but that's about it. Run them through a test of overall athleticism: speed, stamina, strength, flexibility, hand-eye coordination, etc., and Jordan would very likely win in a walk.
LeBron and it's not even remotely close. LeBron is one of the most freakishly athletic specimens to ever walk on this planet.
Posted on 10/3/17 at 6:30 pm to VADawg
quote:
You mean his sophomore season when he pulled his quad running for a 75 yard TD at Clemson
Correct on the year. 2013 (sophomore season). If pulling his quad was cramping, then yes. Gurley had to go to the locker room several times in his career for fluids. He had to go to the sideline several times for oxygen. Like I said, he's an engine that burns hotter than other players.
Did he run the ball 11 times after pulling his quad? No.
Posted on 10/4/17 at 12:25 am to FaCubeItches
quote:
So, by that thinking the worst SEC team would just go out and win title after title if they were zapped back a couple of decades?
That's a strange leap... I would argue that the worst SEC team today likely could beat probably the middle of the road SEC team in the Walker era though... which is exactly the point I was making. The floor today is equal to or higher than the average then... Of course it's not a strictly linear equation... the best athletes don't always win the game... matchups, coaching, etc... but in this hypothetical vacuum? Sure... I'd take Mizzou's chances against the middle tier team in the early 80s of the SEC.
Ultimately, all of this is a little silly, as it's a hypothetical scenario that can't exist... what we *can* see is the draft profiles of individuals going to the NFL from college today vs then...
In 1980, Joe Jacoby - one of the original Hogs - made it into the NFL at OT with a 400 lb bench press (weighing just over 300 lbs himself) for example and was considered a giant in the NFL. [For reference, Nick Chubb benched 395 as a high schooler (at 220).] By 2013, the *median* NFL OL weighed 310, meaning more than half of the leagues OL weighed more than Jacoby... The Hogs by today's standards would just be average at best... instead they powered their way to 3 Super Bowls. One of the smallest Hogs — Hall of Famer Russ Grimm — stood 6 feet 3 inches and weighed 273 pounds. Today, he would be one of the league’s smallest guards.
quote:
Lebron is probably a much worse athlete than Jordan. He's probably stronger, but that's about it. Run them through a test of overall athleticism: speed, stamina, strength, flexibility, hand-eye coordination, etc., and Jordan would very likely win in a walk.
Wanna know how I know you're not ready for this discussion?
I'll let Sport Science provide a few fun highlights encapsulating some of Lebron's athletic prowess... LINK
They're certainly different *styles* of athletes... 6'6" and 210ish compared to Lebron's 6'8" (9?) and 250ish... I'd probably give Jordan the edge on quickness/reaction time... he had a lethal first step, and then agility... his ability to control his body/contort mid air to keep things alive was incredible. But here's the thing... Lebron can is only marginally behind in those areas and instead brings similar overall functional speed, significantly more power, and the ability to essentially score at will due to a linebacker's build. He's one of the most complete athletes to ever play the damn sport. If he weren't also a giant pussy, I'd say he likely could play TE for a bad NFL team and likely bat cleanup and play outfield for the damn Braves right now...
How about we let Steve Kerr weigh in since he played with MJ...
In response to the question: Is King James the best athlete in the world?
quote:
Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr: "Can you find another one? Maybe American Pharoah? (Laughing). No, I think I said when I was a broadcaster with TNT, I think I might have made the comment that he's arguably the best athlete that any of us have ever seen in terms of size and speed and strength. I mean, he's a force. We know that."
Posted on 10/4/17 at 12:39 am to BigDaddyDawg
quote:
My own personal top ten
1. Herschel
2. Gurley
3. Chubb
4. Hearst
5. Hampton
6. Lars Tate
7. Tim Worley
8. Moreno
9. Robert Edwards
10. Musa Smith
How amazing when Davis/Haynes/brown/lumpkin/Gary/Ware/Crowell etc don't crack a top ten... running back u
That's a great list of contemporary UGA backs. I'd move Lars down to 10. He was a nice workaday back but not as dynamic as Moreno, not as explosive as Edwards and not as powerful as Musa. Edwards was unbelievable right up until he broke his foot against UT that night in '95. He looked unstoppable.
Although he didn't produce the stats of these others, Keith Henderson was a tremendous talent. He had strengh, balance, speed and vision. At one point (88 I think) we had Worley, Mack Strong, Henderson and Hampton all on the same team. Now that is Four Horseman territory right there!
This post was edited on 10/4/17 at 12:49 am
Posted on 10/4/17 at 12:44 am to S1C EM
quote:
All of that said, if these three guys were playing right now, TODAY, would Herschel even be in the top 2?
Yes defenses are faster and bigger now. But don't forget in Herschel's day lineman couldn't block with their hands. Also in those days Uga had ZERO credible passing threat to take the pressure off the run game. Georgia lined up in the I in every play, defenses could put everybody in the box, and the only deception was whether it was going right or going left.
Posted on 10/4/17 at 8:19 am to VADawg
quote:
LeBron and it's not even remotely close. LeBron is one of the most freakishly athletic specimens to ever walk on this planet.
Nope. Get tired of hearing people say this. If you never saw Jordan play, you don't get it. LeBron is freakishly big and strong and that's about it. Arguably not even the best bball player today, much less of all-time. It's still Jordan and, as you say, it's not even remotely close.
Posted on 10/4/17 at 8:22 am to VADawg
quote:
LeBron and it's not even remotely close
How old are you?
Posted on 10/4/17 at 8:23 am to fibonaccisquared
quote:
the best athlete that any of us have ever seen in terms of size and speed and strength.
And I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that, but those are not the only attributes one must take into account in this argument.
Posted on 10/4/17 at 10:32 am to S1C EM
quote:
Nope. Get tired of hearing people say this. If you never saw Jordan play, you don't get it. LeBron is freakishly big and strong and that's about it. Arguably not even the best bball player today, much less of all-time. It's still Jordan and, as you say, it's not even remotely close.
I'm aware that this wasn't directed at me, but I am a Jordan fan. I grew up watching the Bulls on my little black and white TV with an antenna thanks to WGN. I absolutely agree that MJ is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen... can't speak to some of the guys that came before him. As to "not close" that's a bit more subjective... I think that Lebron's ability to dominate this league as an individual certainly gets him in the conversation, but we're not at some "in the next couple of years, he overtakes Jordan" point either. It's close in that it's not like he's been lapped, but he'd have to do a ton to make up ground IMO (not the least of which would include not trying to chase more rings with other teams like a goober).
As far as an athlete though, it really is Lebron. There's a lot of hate for the dude, but he's simply a superior *athlete*. MJ's likely biggest edge would be at the 40 yard dash (dude reportedly ran a 4.3... Lebron is believed to have run a 4.6 as recently as 2013), but when you account for it all, speed, size, agility, etc... it's Lebron by a fairly significant margin. That's not just my opinion... hell, his own personal trainer freely admits that he wasn't even the best athlete on the court during his time as a player...
quote:
Grover and MJ first began working together as a result of the Bulls getting roughed up by the NBA's biggest bully, the Detroit Pistons, in consecutive Eastern Conference Finals. MJ could have easily urged Bulls management to recruit some of the "Bad Boy" Pistons to play alongside him or manipulated his way onto the Detroit roster. Instead, he took aim.
"There was a small article in the newspaper saying how Michael was tired of taking the physical abuse from [them]," Grover recalls. "He wanted to start a strength and conditioning program, but he was afraid of lifting weights, because he wasn't sure what the effect on his game would be. I met with the team trainer and strength coach at the time and explained my philosophy, and they introduced me to Michael. He said he would try it out for 30 days, and it turned into 15 years."
Those 15 years of one-on-one training helped produce the greatest basketball player of all time. And while the current NBA off-season was more Hollywood than hardwood—less about basketball and more about free agency status and decisions—MJ's off-seasons were opportunities to improve his athleticism and refine his game. His big decision came each day at 5:00 a.m., when he awoke and chose to spend another day working harder than any other basketball player on the planet.
"He always felt like someone else was going to outwork him," Grover explains. "So, he wanted to outwork them first. He knew his weaknesses and his strengths. He had a big thing where he'd say, 'I'm going to turn my weaknesses into strengths.' You'll notice that every year his game [evolved].
There was always something that he added."
The additions to MJ's game were hardly subtle. They smacked his opponents and critics in the face as each season opened. When critics predicted that he couldn't win a scoring title and an NBA Championship, MJ went out and did it. When they said he was a one-dimensional player who could only score, he came back and won the scoring title and Defensive Player of the Year Award. Going back to his initial goal of getting stronger to go head-to-head with the Pistons, he eventually worked his way up to being able to shoulder press 225 pounds overhead six times.
MJ's accomplishments are even more impressive because he was never the most gifted athlete on the court. "Michael's athleticism back in the day was extremely high," Grover says. "But, there were a lot of other athletes who were more athletic. The greatness came from the work he put in, his dedication to be his best, not wanting to lose at anything and studying the film and movements of his opponents. His physical attributes have been seen among a lot of other players, but the mental make-up was completely different. It's extremely rare."
LINK
Posted on 10/4/17 at 2:23 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
I absolutely agree that MJ is the greatest basketball player I've ever seen.
Sorry, the question of best bball player was what I was addressing, not athlete. I suppose LeBron has an argument there. He's still not and will never be the best bball player, though.
That being said, you need to take what people like Kerr, etc. have to say about how good LeBron is vs. any player from the past with a grain of salt. No one is going to come out in favor of the guy from 30 years ago. They want to build up the league and the players of NOW. Saying the guy his team has beaten in the finals twice is not as good as MJ would be taking a little shot at his own team's success. As a competitor, you want to build the current opponent up. It's simple marketing. You want people to be interested in the sport as it is right NOW. So you build up the players and the teams of now to generate greater interest. You don't do that by saying the guy who played 30 years ago was better. That stated, I understand your argument now.
quote:
his dedication to be his best, not wanting to lose at anything
This is what I remember the most. Going 6-for-6 in the NBA finals (and the last three after taking the "baseball hiatus") still stands out to me as one of the more impressive feats ever accomplished by an athlete. He could just turn it on when the game was on the line like no one else.
Posted on 10/4/17 at 2:34 pm to S1C EM
MJ is the greatest athlete of the modern era.
He is "Ruthian" and on the same level as the Babe was close to 100 years ago.
When I think of two athletes that define America those are the two. Babe dominates the discussion of the first half of professional sports. MJ dominates the discussion of the second half. Both are what all others are judged by that came after them. Mickey Mantle, considered by many to be the most complete ball player still had the ghost of Babe Ruth (and DiMaggio) lingering over him his entire career. Same thing with the shadow of MJ over LeBron.
He is "Ruthian" and on the same level as the Babe was close to 100 years ago.
When I think of two athletes that define America those are the two. Babe dominates the discussion of the first half of professional sports. MJ dominates the discussion of the second half. Both are what all others are judged by that came after them. Mickey Mantle, considered by many to be the most complete ball player still had the ghost of Babe Ruth (and DiMaggio) lingering over him his entire career. Same thing with the shadow of MJ over LeBron.
This post was edited on 10/4/17 at 2:40 pm
Posted on 10/4/17 at 2:50 pm to S1C EM
quote:
Sorry, the question of best bball player was what I was addressing, not athlete. I suppose LeBron has an argument there. He's still not and will never be the best bball player, though.
All good.
IMO, I don't see a scenario where Lebron overtakes MJ as best basketball player either... but won't say it in absolutes... always a chance something changes, but at this point I think we know who Lebron is... It's unlikely that he reinvents himself in such a way that he is more impressive as a bball player than MJ. quote:
you need to take what people like Kerr
I'm fairly confident that the quote was from before Kerr was coaching. Even if it wasn't, MJ's trainer has no such bias and not only did he not say he's not the greatest athlete of all time, he stated he wasn't even the most athletic guy in the league at the time... which is true. But his work ethic, determination, etc... that's what made him great. If there is such a thing as a "clutch gene"... he had 37 of them.
quote:
This is what I remember the most. Going 6-for-6 in the NBA finals (and the last three after taking the "baseball hiatus") still stands out to me as one of the more impressive feats ever accomplished by an athlete. He could just turn it on when the game was on the line like no one else.
For sure... I think we're on the same page.
Posted on 10/4/17 at 2:51 pm to miledawg
quote:
quote:
My own personal top ten
1. Herschel
2. Gurley
3. Chubb
4. Hearst
5. Hampton
6. Lars Tate
7. Tim Worley
8. Moreno
9. Robert Edwards
10. Musa Smith
How amazing when Davis/Haynes/brown/lumpkin/Gary/Ware/Crowell etc don't crack a top ten... running back u
That's a great list of contemporary UGA backs. I'd move Lars down to 10. He was a nice workaday back but not as dynamic as Moreno, not as explosive as Edwards and not as powerful as Musa. Edwards was unbelievable right up until he broke his foot against UT that night in '95. He looked unstoppable.
Although he didn't produce the stats of these others, Keith Henderson was a tremendous talent. He had strengh, balance, speed and vision. At one point (88 I think) we had Worley, Mack Strong, Henderson and Hampton all on the same team. Now that is Four Horseman territory right there!
I agree Lars could be moved down. I think i over ranked him because he is so often forgotten about/overlooked.
Posted on 10/4/17 at 3:17 pm to fibonaccisquared
quote:
I'm fairly confident that the quote was from before Kerr was coaching.
Well, if so, he still has a reason to want the sport to continue to be appealing. That means hyping up what you've got to work with.
quote:
MJ's trainer has no such bias and not only did he not say he's not the greatest athlete of all time, he stated he wasn't even the most athletic guy in the league at the time... which is true.
Agreed. I would definitely be more inclined to take what he says as closer to fact.
quote:
But his work ethic, determination, etc... that's what made him great. If there is such a thing as a "clutch gene"... he had 37 of them.
And THAT is what separates the greats (LeBron, Kobe, Majic, Wilt, etc) from the GREATEST, His Airness.
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