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re: moral equivalency? hunh vs flopping
Posted on 3/9/14 at 5:52 pm to narddogg81
Posted on 3/9/14 at 5:52 pm to narddogg81
quote:
are you trying to argue that the change to the 40 second play clock did not change the snap dynamics and substitution dynamics that existed prior to the rule change in favor of an offense an offense that plays in a particualr style?
No, and I don't think I've ever stated that.
quote:
are you saying that the nfl did not handle these (apparently imaginary) changes with ref instructions?
No, and I don't think I ever stated that.
quote:
i wish people would just admit when they have a bias.
Everyone has a bias. You've got people that hate the HUNH because they don't like to see football change from what they've grown used to growing up. You've got people that only like the HUNH because it's what their team runs to be successful, and you've got people that hate the HUNH because their team struggles with it or their coach has taken a public stance against it.
I believe I've made a post in which I've answered your original question that you have neglected to respond to. It highlights my opinion on your original subject matter completely. In it, I expressed that just because a style of play affords the offense an advantage, it does not make that advantage inherently unfair. I've highlighted why I think this is the case and don't wish to rehash it. However, faking an injury I believe is unfair because it is a manipulation of the rules to achieve a stoppage of play without sacrificing a TO (which the HUNH is not, it is simply playing the game of football inside of the rules). And, if you want to argue that it isn't an unfair advantage, that's fine, because it is still unethical. Not only is it obvious why it is unethical, but it is explicitly defined as unethical as quoted earlier in this thread.
I will repeat myself again though, anyone that advocates that an up tempo offense violates the "spirit" or "integrity" of the game but then even slightly believes that faking an injury is the proper course of action to fight the up tempo offense is taking contradictory and hypocritical stances.
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Posted on 3/9/14 at 5:54 pm to molsusports
Your team is one of the most complained about teams for flopping, and also oddly the team that hunh guys point to say how to stop it.
Posted on 3/9/14 at 6:17 pm to olddawg26
Posted on 3/9/14 at 6:27 pm to bamamonty
quote:
To add an anti-flopping rule, is as bad as the 10 sec. rule that was just tabled. Who would decide who was flopping and who was not. Another judgement call added when not needed.
you aren't adding a rule, you are enforcing an already existing rule
Posted on 3/9/14 at 6:41 pm to narddogg81
quote:
Your team is one of the most complained about teams for flopping, and also oddly the team that hunh guys point to say how to stop it.
that's a misleading statement. LSU was successful against A&M for reasons that had nothing to do with tempo. they just had the right type of athletes (fast DEs esp) play disciplined stay in their lane defense against JFF and avoided giving up a lot of the loosey goosey plays against him that a lot of people did.
Oregon put up a lot of yards on LSU but Chavis' bend but don't break defense with big and athletic players in the secondary shut them down more when the field shrunk - that combined with big plays for turnovers made the game less than close.
Ole Miss plays a very different offense from Auburn or A&M or Oregon but it is also HUNH. They just flat out played better than LSU that day and there's really no reason other than their team played like men that day and LSU as a whole played at a much lower level than they should have any excuse for ever playing. Similarly LSU just executed better than Auburn last year and just flat out beat them for reasons that had really nothing much to do with how soon their offense lined up at the line of scrimmage.
RE: the injuries? As it turns out several of the players who were booed by teams for "faking" were gone for the rest of the game - but setting that aside I'm all in favor of enforcing a rule that would fairly penalize LSU in cases where there were players who were faking. Having them stay out of the game for a number of minutes after they were too injured to continue seems reasonable no matter who you are.
Posted on 3/9/14 at 6:44 pm to molsusports
So, if flopping is against the rules, who will determine the legitimacy?
By suggesting in previous posts, that the flopping player(to be determined by who),must sit out an x number of downs. Why does this not need a rule change( the very thing that crowded this board with numerous crying and whining).
By suggesting in previous posts, that the flopping player(to be determined by who),must sit out an x number of downs. Why does this not need a rule change( the very thing that crowded this board with numerous crying and whining).
Posted on 3/9/14 at 6:51 pm to Snatchy
There's nothing you can do about it. Unless you are a professional trainer or anything of the like, who are you to judge whether or not the player is hurt, or to what degree the injury is? It is a loophole in the system that probably won't every change.
Posted on 3/9/14 at 6:58 pm to bamamonty
quote:
So, if flopping is against the rules, who will determine the legitimacy?
you don't have to determine the legitimacy. you just enforce the rule against flopping & protect the safety of players. by having any player who is too injured to leave the field on his own power stay out of the game several minutes to be evaluated properly by medical staff you accomplish both goals.
hopefully that means no gray area & less flopping
Posted on 3/9/14 at 7:14 pm to molsusports
quote:the current rule for a player following an injury timeout is that he is inelligible for the next play. Anything other than that would indeed be a rule change
you aren't adding a rule, you are enforcing an already existing rule
Posted on 3/10/14 at 2:02 am to narddogg81
That's what I thought as well nar, but molsu says that is not the case. I have never heard of more than a 1 play penalty for being hurt and stopping the clock. Maybe he can enlighten us as to what the hell he is talking about with this enforce the rules that are in place line he keeps repeating. I mean I don't have the rule books memorized so maybe their is another rule I don't know about.
Or maybe he misunderstood our self appointed ref when he quoted from the ethics book, which isn't a rule book.
Or maybe he misunderstood our self appointed ref when he quoted from the ethics book, which isn't a rule book.
Posted on 3/10/14 at 2:07 am to northalabamacracker
Posted on 3/10/14 at 2:17 am to molsusports
I did. Nowhere in that post does it give a time frame for how longa player has to sit. Its the rule book code of ethics. No actual penalty is stated.
By rule, how long does a player have to sit? You keeo implying its more than one play so just tell us.
By rule, how long does a player have to sit? You keeo implying its more than one play so just tell us.
This post was edited on 3/10/14 at 2:19 am
Posted on 3/10/14 at 2:36 am to northalabamacracker
I'm not implying. I'm stating an opinion of what should be done to enforce the spirit of already existing rules.
I don't understand this whole distraction argument from the Bama fans anyway. The HUNH is not unethical - it operates within the rules and the spirit of the rules. Flopping is spelled out in black and white as being against the rules. That's what the cited text shows.
I don't understand this whole distraction argument from the Bama fans anyway. The HUNH is not unethical - it operates within the rules and the spirit of the rules. Flopping is spelled out in black and white as being against the rules. That's what the cited text shows.
Posted on 3/10/14 at 2:57 am to molsusports
What is the penalty for faking an injury?
Posted on 3/10/14 at 4:18 am to northalabamacracker
I think officials actually have very wide latitude to make decisions with respect to how to penalize an unfair act - but I don't think that makes sense (because it leads to irregular enforcement and penalties which are unfair to teams who receive more significant penalties).
Anyway, I feel like that discussion has already been had in this thread. If it wasn't clear to the reader - this is why I think it would make more sense to think about how to enforce the rules and apply penalties which are consistent instead of having irregular and unfair outcomes.
Anyway, I feel like that discussion has already been had in this thread. If it wasn't clear to the reader - this is why I think it would make more sense to think about how to enforce the rules and apply penalties which are consistent instead of having irregular and unfair outcomes.
Posted on 3/10/14 at 7:37 am to Manzielathon
quote:
One requires practice and efficiency and one requires being a bitch....
Why is this even a discussion
Agree overall but GA seems to have the flopping down pretty good so I'm thinking maybe they practice it.
Posted on 3/10/14 at 8:58 am to molsusports
quote:
I think officials actually have very wide latitude to make decisions with respect to how to penalize an unfair act
Rule 9-2-3-d; it's either that section or 9-3-2-d....I'm going off memory and may have transposed the section numbers.
quote:
- but I don't think that makes sense (because it leads to irregular enforcement and penalties which are unfair to teams who receive more significant penalties).
It doesn't. To invoke that rule, the unfair act has to be so blatant it's obvious.
No official is going to make a medical call and say a player is faking an injury....it's not our job. We err on the side of caution and player safety; especially when it comes to observing symptoms of concussion.
It's up to the HC to hold his players accountable to ethical standards.
Posted on 3/10/14 at 9:01 am to narddogg81
One's against the rules and the other isn't. The end.
Posted on 3/10/14 at 9:13 am to DMagic
I think that "the very wide latitude" argument is asking for trouble. All you need do is look at the targeting rule last year. So, if we go by the current rule, the player with the injury or flops, has to set out a play. Officials shoul just enforce the rule and leave it at that.
Posted on 3/10/14 at 9:14 am to bamamonty
There's no way to tell if someone is injured or not so we will just deal with the flopping. It's not that big of a deal.
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