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re: Is this not the definition of targeting?

Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:28 pm to
Posted by djsdawg
Member since Apr 2015
32855 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:28 pm to
quote:

What? It's the main thing that is relevant to the penalty.


You are going to have to prove this one
Posted by TigerLunatik
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Jan 2005
93673 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:28 pm to
quote:

The front is the forehad or face mask.
That is the crown of the head

No it isn't. The crown of the helmet is the top.
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25594 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:29 pm to
quote:

If this was a running back, do you feel that this is still targeting?

Targeting is to protect the defender from breaking his own neck.

It doesn't matter if the ballcarrier is the running back, qb, wr, or a lineman after a fumble. Keep your head up and don't lead with the crown.
Posted by TigerLunatik
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Jan 2005
93673 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:30 pm to
quote:

No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting.

If the player was defenseless any contact to the head or neck area would be targeting. If the player isn't defenseless then the defender has to use a very small and specific area of the helmet to be called for targeting.
This post was edited on 11/14/22 at 12:32 pm
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25594 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:30 pm to
quote:


No it isn't. The crown of the helmet is the top

Correct. The face mask is pointing down

The defender is using the crown of his helmet.

Agree to disagree if you can't understand. Lol
Posted by skrayper
21-0 Asterisk Drive
Member since Nov 2012
30873 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:30 pm to
Here are the targeting rules:


quote:

Note 1: "Targeting" means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball. Some indications of targeting (emphasis NCAA's) include but are not limited to:

Launch-a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make forcible contact in the head or neck area

A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on the ground

Leading with helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area

Lowering the head before attacking by initiating forcible contact with the crown of the helmet




quote:

Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14). When in question, a player is defenseless. Examples of defenseless players include but are not limited to:

A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass

A receiver attempting to catch a forward pass or in position to receive a backward pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier

A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return

A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier

A player on the ground

A player obviously out of the play

A player who receives a blind-side block

A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped

A quarterback any time after a change of possession a ball carrier who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet first"


I'm not sure which definition of a defenseless player you feel this applies to...?




Now, should a flag been thrown and then let the refs confirm on instant replay that the UGA player lowered their head as well? Maybe. That being said I would argue it should be overturned on replay anyway because the UGA player lowered his head as well.
This post was edited on 11/14/22 at 12:32 pm
Posted by The Albatross
Member since Mar 2021
864 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:32 pm to
Dude, I’m not seeing it. And I ask that because QBs are usually given deference in instances like this. Fans are certainly more apt to call it targeting if it’s the QB as opposed to a running back who gets hit like this on nearly every play. If you want to die on this hill, cool. All I’m saying is I don’t think it was targeting and that’s how it was called.
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25594 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:32 pm to
You defined targeting. No mention of defenseless.

Then you defined defenseless.

Targeting does not require defenseless.
Posted by djsdawg
Member since Apr 2015
32855 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:33 pm to
Looks like Targeting can be to a defenseless player, but doesn’t have to be.
Posted by TigerLunatik
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Jan 2005
93673 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:33 pm to
quote:

The defender is using the crown of his helmet.

No he really isn't.
Posted by PeleofAnalytics
Member since Jun 2021
2748 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:34 pm to
quote:

Irrelevant to the penalty


Do you people even read the rules before talking?
"Defenseless" is literally in the first sentence of the rule (I bolded the word for you with the rest of the rule from the rulebook). You have to be "defenseless" for targeting to apply. You can try to claim it was a crown of the helmet rule (which is Article 3 which is a completely different rule and not called "targeting". The ref will say "contact with crown of the helmet" and there will NOPT be an ejection) but if you have listened to broadcasts all year, they have been saying that refs have been told to use that outlined strip on the top/front of the helmets as the what is considered the crown. Here is the rule:

ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a DEFENSELESS opponent (See Note 2 below) with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul (Rules 2-27-14 and 9-6). (A.R. 9-1-4-I-VI)

Note 1: "Targeting" means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball. Some indicators of targeting include but are not limited to:

Launch-a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make forcible contact in the head or neck area
A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on the ground
Leading with helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area
Lowering the head before attacking by initiating forcible contact with the crown of the helmet
Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14). When in question, a player is defenseless. Examples of defenseless players include but are not limited to:

A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
A receiver attempting to catch a forward pass or in position to receive a backward pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
A player on the ground.
A player obviously out of the play.
A player who receives a blind-side block.
A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
A quarterback any time after a change of possession A ball carrier who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feetfirst.

Nothing about that play shows a "defenseless" player so does not apply.
This post was edited on 11/14/22 at 12:36 pm
Posted by Pickle_Weasel
Member since Mar 2016
3806 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:34 pm to
Here's the full rule...

Targeting and Making Forcible Contact With the Crown of the Helmet
ARTICLE 3.
No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown of their helmet. The crown of the helmet is the top segment of the helmet; namely, the circular area defined by a 6-inch radius from the apex (top) of the helmet. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul. (Rule 9-6) (A.R. 9-1-3-I)
Targeting and Making Forcible Contact to Head or Neck Area of a Defenseless Player
ARTICLE 4.
No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent (See Note 2 below) with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting (See Note 1 below). When in question, it is a foul (Rules 2-27-14 and 9-6). (A.R. 9-1-4-I-VI)
Note 1: “Targeting” means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball. Some indicators of targeting include but are not limited to:
• Launch. A player leaving their feet to attack an opponent by an upward and forward thrust of the body to make forcible contact in the head or neck area.
• A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on the ground.
• Leading with helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area.
• Lowering the head before attacking by initiating forcible contact with the crown of the helmet.
Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14). When in question, a player is defenseless. Examples of defenseless players include but are not limited to:
• A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass. This includes an offensive player in a passing posture with focus downfield.
• A receiver attempting to catch a forward pass or in position to receive a backward pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect themselves or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
• A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
• A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick, or one who has completed a catch or recovery and has not had time to protect themselves or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
• A player on the ground.
• A player obviously out of the play.
• A player who receives a blind-side block.
• A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
• A quarterback any time after a change of possession
• A ball carrier who has obviously given themselves up and is sliding feet-first.
This post was edited on 11/14/22 at 12:36 pm
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25594 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:35 pm to
quote:

All I’m saying is I don’t think it was targeting and that’s how it was called


Other angle showed contact to the shoulder and body.

It was a good no-call.

Nothing from this photo or this sideline angle would refute the call, though. I've watched this play a dozen times over from multiple angles. Every angle on the sideline looks bad. All other angles does not.

It was a good review and good noncall.
Posted by TigerLunatik
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Jan 2005
93673 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:36 pm to
quote:

The crown of the helmet is the top segment of the helmet; namely, the circular area defined by a 6-inch radius from the apex (top) of the helmet.

Exactly. It's a very small and specific area of the helmet. The front of the helmet right above the face mask is not considered to be the crown.
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25594 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:37 pm to
Read your own copy/paste carefully.

Defenseless redefines the requirements for targeting. It makes it an easier call (only needs 1 indicator).

You can have targeting with 3 indicators or targeting a defenseless player with 1.
Posted by djsdawg
Member since Apr 2015
32855 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:38 pm to
quote:

Do you people even read the rules before talking?


Nah man. I don’t have a rule book handy.
Posted by TigerLunatik
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Jan 2005
93673 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:39 pm to
quote:

It was a good review and good noncall

You were just arguing that he used the crown of his helmet.
Posted by Lonnie Utah
Utah!
Member since Jul 2012
23917 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:39 pm to
quote:

Why is it ok for the offensive player to lower his head but not the defensive player?


If we made targeting a penalty that the Refs could call on both the offense and defense, guys wouldn't duck their heads anymore. All it would take would be for a star QB or RB or two to get booted for targeting and that's over...

Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25594 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:41 pm to
In that angle, yes. Direct to the helmet of Bennett.

In the other angles, he is making contact to the body to force him out of bounds. You don't even notice the head to head unless you are looking for it. Bennett's head does not give an indicator of force able contact (doesn't snap to the side).

Edit to add: there are 2 separate cameras on the play from the sideline and they both look bad. The TV copy does get to the tight view eventually behind the QB and that is the angle which saves the defender (which is a good thing. It sucks when a starter gets the boot)
This post was edited on 11/14/22 at 12:44 pm
Posted by The Albatross
Member since Mar 2021
864 posts
Posted on 11/14/22 at 12:43 pm to
So, I think what we can all agree on is that this is bait from OP.
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