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re: First Down Marker rules: Breaking That Plane
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:40 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:40 pm to SummerOfGeorge
Correct but that is only if the play is blown dead prior to the player being down by contact
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Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:40 pm to Old Sarge
quote:
BAll is supposed to be spotted where it was when the players knee elbow or body make contact
Not per the rules expert that came on and told Gary right to his face that he was incorrect.
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:41 pm to Sao
I'm not sure how it is in college but I think I remember watching an NFL game (think it was the Bears and Trubisky?) where the QB tried to do that Drew Brees break the plane over the top move, except they did it for the first down. I think he ended up fumbling but the announcers said even if he maintained possession that wouldn't be a first down.
When you break the plane of the goal line, the play/drive ends there, it doesn't matter if you go back out because it's no longer a live play. If you break the 1st down plane, the play is still live and you can still go backwards. That's how I interpret it at least.
When you break the plane of the goal line, the play/drive ends there, it doesn't matter if you go back out because it's no longer a live play. If you break the 1st down plane, the play is still live and you can still go backwards. That's how I interpret it at least.
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:41 pm to Old Sarge
quote:
Correct but that is only if the play is blown dead prior to the player being down by contact
Well, I mean, when a receiver catches a ball across the middle at the 42 and then gets hit immediately and hits the ground at the 40..........the ball is marked at the 42, not the 40.
This is treated the same way.
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:43 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
Latu landed across the marker, so it wasn't exactly the same situation. One relied on forward progress, one didn't.
No he didn’t. When they showed the same angle as Florida pic you posted, Latu was short. He stretched out but brought it back.
Both are first downs. Not like they crossed the 1st down then ran backwards. They were in the process of being tackled.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:46 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:43 pm to WaterLink
quote:
I'm not sure how it is in college but I think I remember watching an NFL game (think it was the Bears and Trubisky?) where the QB tried to do that Drew Brees break the plane over the top move, except they did it for the first down. I think he ended up fumbling but the announcers said even if he maintained possession that wouldn't be a first down.
Yea, because that would definitely be different. He puts the ball over the 1st down line but then brings it back on his own volition - he's not being dragged down or back by a tackler.
I mean, realistically, a receiver reaching out then pulling it back to avoid fumble as he's tackled should probably be treated the same way. But then it's impossible to argue the difference in that and forward progress, so unless they clearly reach across and then pull it back and then get tackled.....they generally give the benefit of the doubt.
Same with a receiver who catches the ball - if they clearly run backwards on their own without any contact, there is no forward progress. But if they get much contact at all and that tackle drops them, they generally get forward progress.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:48 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:45 pm to bstew3006
quote:
No he didn’t.
Yes, he did
If his knee was down in #1, he's cleared the line by almost a full yard. If it takes until #2, the ball is halfway over the line.
Either way, the ball was past the marker when he hit the ground.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:47 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:45 pm to WaterLink
quote:
I'm not sure how it is in college but I think I remember watching an NFL game (think it was the Bears and Trubisky?) where the QB tried to do that Drew Brees break the plane over the top move
Another great point. A leap and stretch on a pile, extend over the line to make and pull back into the body only to eventually land behind the LTG.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:46 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:47 pm to Sao
I thought it was interesting to hear the rules guy explain it, because I knew it wasn't like a TD in that breaking the plane is all that matters, but I wasn't sure exactly how it worked in terms of forward progress/bringing the ball back to your body/etc.
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:48 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
Yes, he did
You know the orange line isn’t accurate lol
And as I posted, when they showed the same angle(during broadcast) as you posted of the Florida player, he was short. But whatever buddy.
Both are first downs, IMO. Not like they crossed the 1st down then ran backwards. They were in the process of being tackled.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:50 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:50 pm to SummerOfGeorge
That's where my brain is honestly. Breaking the GL plane is definitive and a subsequent strip or fumble is meaningless(if possession is clear)
During a field play, the carrier has 2 jobs. Complete both the LTG and ball protection.
During a field play, the carrier has 2 jobs. Complete both the LTG and ball protection.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:51 pm to bstew3006
quote:
You know the orange line isn’t accurate lol
LOL he literally landed on the marker - we knew where it was. Exactly on the 12 yard line.
quote:
And as I posted, when they showed the same angle(during broadcast) as you posted of the Florida player, he was short. But whatever buddy.
These pictures are from the broadcast
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:52 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:51 pm to finchmeister08
If you go backward of your own accord, you dont get credit for where the ball could have been....
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:53 pm to Sao
quote:
That's where my brain is honestly. Breaking the GL plane is definitive and a subsequent strip or fumble is meaningless(if possession is clear)
During a field play, the carrier has 2 jobs. Complete both the LTG and ball protection.
Yep - it's definitely not something I want my receivers/tight ends doing in traffic or even very often. If it's a 3rd down that is important out at the boundary outside of traffic, ok that might make it worth the risk. Latu's probably fits that, and Florida's definitely did (4th and 2 late in the game, no doubt good decision).
But getting in the habit of doing it is scary - you try that in the middle of the field and you are just asking for a safety or LB to pop that thing out of your hands.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 1:54 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:54 pm to lewis and herschel
What constitutes backwards? The arms or the body?
Posted on 9/22/21 at 1:56 pm to Sao
Its intent, did you back up on your own or did the defense make you go backwards.
Posted on 9/22/21 at 2:15 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
If his knee was down in #1, he's cleared the line by almost a full yard. If it takes until #2, the ball is halfway over the line.
The yellow line means nothing. The sideline marker is the one that counts. That's why official measurements often change what looked like a first down based on the imaginary line on your TV screen.
Posted on 9/22/21 at 2:16 pm to AlaCowboy
quote:
The yellow line means nothing. The sideline marker is the one that counts. That's why official measurements often change what looked like a first down based on the imaginary line on your TV screen.
Except we know that the yellow line and the sideline marker are the same because the play occurs on top of the sideline marker - the line to gain is right on the 12.
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 2:17 pm
Posted on 9/22/21 at 2:19 pm to Sao
This is where the rules get stupid and why the refs have so much trouble getting calls right. If a running back runs up the gut gets a couple of yards and then is stood up and is pushed back then I can see giving that back forward progress. But in a situation like this play I don’t get the forward progress argument. He was being tackled. He really had no forward progress to begin with. All he could do was stick the ball out. If he sticks the ball out and then pulls it back before his knee hits the ground then I don’t see how that play could be treated the same as the above example I just gave. That situation is more closely related to a guy catching a ball for a first down then running backwards on his own and giving up the yards needed for the first on his own and being tackled. The play in question seems like a more subjective Application of the forward progress rules. The refs having to keep all these rules and exceptions to the rules straight seem more like asking them to remember all the rules to an algebraic equation rather than just simply officiating a football game.
Posted on 9/22/21 at 2:20 pm to RollingwiththeTide
Agreed - the logic of it seems to fit much more into the "of his own volition" variety than the "he got to a spot and was driven back" variety.
Don't worry, I'm soon there will be a completely different interpretation at some point in the near future
Don't worry, I'm soon there will be a completely different interpretation at some point in the near future
This post was edited on 9/22/21 at 2:21 pm
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