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CBS: "Butch Jones is Underrated"
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:50 pm
LINK
For those who don't actually want to read through it, here are the highlights.
Butch agrees with the writer (Dennis Dodd):
Here's the crux of his argument:
And then there's this testament to the level of research that goes into modern sports media:
I kind of agree that Butch has done a decent job, especially in cleaning up some of the academic and other off-field problems the program faced when he got there. But I disagree with the implication that this is the best Tennessee can do. What are your thoughts?
For those who don't actually want to read through it, here are the highlights.
Butch agrees with the writer (Dennis Dodd):
quote:
"I can't say it, but you are right," Jones said. "The story hasn't been out. Name me another college football program four years in, in as competitive a conference that we're in that faced all the adversity and challenges that we had. Plus, all the expectations we faced year in, year out. Then look at the progress that we made."
Here's the crux of his argument:
quote:
The main problem for Tennessee is that it doesn't always realize fully its position -- perhaps the sixth-best program in the SEC. Try to tell me that Tennessee should be ranked ahead of Alabama, Florida, Georgia, LSU and others in the league. It shouldn't be. It's not a state where a load of high school talent resides. According to one source, there are 8-10 Division I players in the state in the next recruiting cycle.
And then there's this testament to the level of research that goes into modern sports media:
quote:
tailback Jalen Heard
I kind of agree that Butch has done a decent job, especially in cleaning up some of the academic and other off-field problems the program faced when he got there. But I disagree with the implication that this is the best Tennessee can do. What are your thoughts?
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Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:51 pm to CrimsonCrusade
I'll post what I posted on the Tennessee board.
My Bammer take on Butch Jones is this
(1) Very good program manager. If you could hire a Chief Operations Officer to manage the program but not hire or fire or coach-in game, he'd be as good as anybody in CFB. He is clearly very good at planning an overall program strategy and implementing it. He does the same with recruiting. His PR schtick is over the top and he isn't very self-aware, but clearly it works with recruits and high school coaches. And it wouldn't be nearly as "laughable" if he was winning a bunch of games (like it wasn't "laughable" his first couple years when he said all that stuff).
(2) Below average football coach. Bad in-game, bad at tough decisions, mediocre at best at managing and building program cohesion in a coaching staff, mediocre at best at dealing with his players and getting the best out of them/putting them in situations to succeed.
I think that #1 has basically hit it's peak. He has the program running smoothly. That is a big deal after your last decade. However, #2 is needed to get past the current spot in the conference pecking order. I don't think #2 can be fixed.
The good news is, #1 has made the program most attractive to a replacement. It's stable, the roster is solid, the recruiting ties have been built and fortified. Everything is set for somebody who can do #1 well enough and do #2 to come in and immediately hit the ground running. It is an incredibly more attractive set up than it was when Butch took over. That's a big deal and he should get a lot of credit for that.
But, of course, that requires Butch being shown the door. And because of his good skill at #1 plus winning 7-9 games a season, that's not an easy sell (especially after the previous 2 head coaches).
My Bammer take on Butch Jones is this
(1) Very good program manager. If you could hire a Chief Operations Officer to manage the program but not hire or fire or coach-in game, he'd be as good as anybody in CFB. He is clearly very good at planning an overall program strategy and implementing it. He does the same with recruiting. His PR schtick is over the top and he isn't very self-aware, but clearly it works with recruits and high school coaches. And it wouldn't be nearly as "laughable" if he was winning a bunch of games (like it wasn't "laughable" his first couple years when he said all that stuff).
(2) Below average football coach. Bad in-game, bad at tough decisions, mediocre at best at managing and building program cohesion in a coaching staff, mediocre at best at dealing with his players and getting the best out of them/putting them in situations to succeed.
I think that #1 has basically hit it's peak. He has the program running smoothly. That is a big deal after your last decade. However, #2 is needed to get past the current spot in the conference pecking order. I don't think #2 can be fixed.
The good news is, #1 has made the program most attractive to a replacement. It's stable, the roster is solid, the recruiting ties have been built and fortified. Everything is set for somebody who can do #1 well enough and do #2 to come in and immediately hit the ground running. It is an incredibly more attractive set up than it was when Butch took over. That's a big deal and he should get a lot of credit for that.
But, of course, that requires Butch being shown the door. And because of his good skill at #1 plus winning 7-9 games a season, that's not an easy sell (especially after the previous 2 head coaches).
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:59 pm to CrimsonCrusade
quote:
I kind of agree that Butch has done a decent job, especially in cleaning up some of the academic and other off-field problems the program faced when he got there. But I disagree with the implication that this is the best Tennessee can do. What are your thoughts?
I posted the article over on the VOLS board. I didn't get the impression from the original article that Dennis Dodd believes Jones is the best we can do, but I agree with the article that there are a lot of reasons to believe that Jones is underrated given the points made. However, George is correct that he is mediocre at best in most coaching realms. This will lead to him being replaced.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:01 pm to Torch
quote:
However, George is correct that he is mediocre at best in most coaching realms. This will lead to him being replaced.
The biggest thing he did was he stopped the bleeding. Tennessee was teetering. He put it back together. That's a big deal and if Tennessee fires him and hires a good coach and becomes a top notch program again, he should be forever loved there, because he will be the reason.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:02 pm to CrimsonCrusade
quote:
Underrated
The whole concept of someone being overrated or underrated is difficult because of changing perception. He probably is a little underrated considering most bash him.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:03 pm to CrimsonCrusade
I wouldn't say under rated. I think Tennessee fans more or less know what to expect from a Butch coached team, as well as their ceiling. But..
I will say he does get a lot of hate, which is not really fair. He inherited a very bad program and has done a pretty good job with consistency, discipline, etc. Tennessee is in a far better position now than they were before because of Butch.
I will say he does get a lot of hate, which is not really fair. He inherited a very bad program and has done a pretty good job with consistency, discipline, etc. Tennessee is in a far better position now than they were before because of Butch.
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:06 pm to rockiee
Yea, I actually think he's pretty accurately "rated" in general. He gets some more "hate" than his stats and resume would suggest, but it's because he brings it on himself with his ridiculous slogans and press conferences.
He's a solid program manager, a good recruiter and a below average coach. I think almost everyone actually agrees on that (even Tennessee fans).
He's a solid program manager, a good recruiter and a below average coach. I think almost everyone actually agrees on that (even Tennessee fans).
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:08 pm to CrimsonCrusade
Butch Jones is Les Miles 2.0
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:09 pm to Iam_PrinceAkeem
quote:
Butch Jones is Les Miles 2.0
Les Miles got fired for falling to a level that is basically Butch's best season.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:12 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
I think almost everyone actually agrees on that (even Tennessee fans).
I have a couple of family members that are Tennessee grads and I would say that is fairly accurate of their thoughts as well. I think people are still trying to stay optimistic but at the same time understand that he needs to do more.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:13 pm to CrimsonCrusade
Dennis Dodd, 'nuff said
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:14 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:exactly, Jones is a horseshite coach. I said when he was hired that they'd never win the east and never win 10 games. Was right on both.
Les Miles got fired for falling to a level that is basically Butch's best season.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:24 pm to Iam_PrinceAkeem
quote:
Butch Jones is Les Miles 2.0
Les won a division title, Sugar Bowl, SEC Title, and National Title in his first three years.
Many will credit Saban for these achievements, but after bottoming out in 2008, Les won 9 games, 10 games, 13 games, 10 games, 10 games, 8 games (bottoming out), and 9 games.
So out of Les' 11 years at LSU, his 8th and 9th best years equal Butch's best two, despite playing in the West and playing in the SEC when Saban, Spurrier, Fulmer, Richt, Meyer, Tubberville, and Petrino were all still around.
ETA: I wanted Les removed as much as the next guy, but to compare Butch Jones to him is an insult.
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 1:26 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:28 pm to CrimsonCrusade
quote:
It's not a state where a load of high school talent resides. According to one source, there are 8-10 Division I players in the state in the next recruiting cycle.
So, he's blaming the state? Pretty certain there are a few more than 8-10. Hell there are 9 in the ESPN top 300
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 1:35 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:29 pm to CrimsonCrusade
quote:
What are your thoughts?
Butch is garbage and his supporters are simpletons.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:29 pm to CrimsonCrusade
Dan got Mississippi State to #1 in year 6...you're on the clock Butch.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:42 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
Yea, I actually think he's pretty accurately "rated" in general.
Generally by this time in a coach's tenure at a school you've got a pretty good idea of what he brings to the table so to speak.
Malzahn is a solid coach who has tendency to get into ruts that cost Auburn games. Bert is a pretty good overall coach but is as lazy as the day is long. Freeze will cheat his beaver teeth out and has a tendency to lose some real head scratchers. Butch is a good program builder but a lousy game day coach.
They are all known qualities at this point. The big question for Bert or Gus is will new coordinators change things?
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:48 pm to CrimsonCrusade
quote:
ennessee should be ranked ahead of Alabama, Florida, Georgia, LSU and others in the league.
It was better than most of those programs for a long span of time. Tennessee could recruit regionally better. According to 247 right now, there are 13 4* in the state in 2019, and 5 more 3* guys. That isn't much, but Tennessee should be able to get half the top 15, and then get good players from the surrounding states.
I guess I don't know why Tennessee would get more of a pass than Michigan for example, or Clemson, who are able to go out of state and bring kids in in non-talent rich states
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:50 pm to rockiee
He sucks no more than arkys coach..lol
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:52 pm to TigerBait2008
quote:
He sucks no more than arkys coach..lol
Agreed, I would feel bad for any program that has lost to him twice already
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