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re: Spinoff: Discussion on Education in the US
Posted on 5/7/13 at 6:51 pm to BluegrassBelle
Posted on 5/7/13 at 6:51 pm to BluegrassBelle
I love all these great responses BTW. 
I'm an educator, currently working in a PLA school (persistently low achieving). We've been state audited based on poor test scores once since I've been there (6 years now) and the year before I was hired on there. I've seen everything from a single-gender approach to restaffing as interventions to raise test scores. While there's been some improvement in scores, we're still educating the same consistently low-performing kids and it's the same hurdles holding us back.
The biggest issues myself and other educators in my area face everyday:
1) Lack of parental involvement. We usually have to resort to catering food in order to get parents/guardians to show up for parent/teacher conferences and that costs $$ that the school can ill afford to do for all events catered towards parents. We have parents that block our numbers when we try to call, cuss us out, hang up on us, etc. Kids that are living with multiple relatives because parents are locked up/drugged out. It's incredibly frustrating and there's no easy solution when you have states cutting social services and a severe lack of CPS/social workers to handle these issues when they arise.
2) Lack of funding. I'm talking about what actually ends up trickling down to the actual school after everyone and their mother on the federal/state/district level has had their hand in the honeypot. Schools should be able to dictate what they need on the school level. They really do know best because they're living it everyday. Which brings me to...
3) Government in the classroom. I have a huge issue with politicians who have never stepped foot in a classroom as an educator making decisions about education. Federal mandates don't work. For instance, my state currently has a law that if your school is found to be a PLA school your Principal must be removed and cannot be a Principal again anywhere in the state. Keep in mind these Principals and Teachers at these schools are often without tenure and fresh out of school themselves because no one with tenure is going to take a position in a PLA school without incentives. It's a pretty ridiculous law that was formed by non-educators. Especially those who live out in the state here and have no idea how to run an urban school.
5) Teaching to the test when we should be teaching formidable real-life skills. The utopian notion that every child should attend college and should test on a proficient level is a disservice to all children. I don't want to buy everyone a trophy. But I do want to give a kid the skills to make a living if he is not able to get into college/isn't "made" for school.
And those are just tip of the iceberg. To me a system that doesn't recognize that we are individuals who learn at different paces and on different levels is a flawed system. At the very least we need to adopt a system that doesn't just use a standardized test score as a benchmark for success. We should be evaluating student all-around growth instead. We should also be targeting students realistically and helping them obtain skills to be successful in life. This "college readiness" bullshite for a kid that is barely passing, doesn't want to be at school, and will probably drop out at an early age is ridiculous. Teach the kid how to balance a checkbook, write a resume. How to hammer a nail, wire a house, rebuild an engine, etc. At the very least give them those skills so that they can be a productive member of the work force. And for those students that are college bound, work to get them ready for college with courses tailored to their needs/strengths/weaknesses.
I'm an educator, currently working in a PLA school (persistently low achieving). We've been state audited based on poor test scores once since I've been there (6 years now) and the year before I was hired on there. I've seen everything from a single-gender approach to restaffing as interventions to raise test scores. While there's been some improvement in scores, we're still educating the same consistently low-performing kids and it's the same hurdles holding us back.
The biggest issues myself and other educators in my area face everyday:
1) Lack of parental involvement. We usually have to resort to catering food in order to get parents/guardians to show up for parent/teacher conferences and that costs $$ that the school can ill afford to do for all events catered towards parents. We have parents that block our numbers when we try to call, cuss us out, hang up on us, etc. Kids that are living with multiple relatives because parents are locked up/drugged out. It's incredibly frustrating and there's no easy solution when you have states cutting social services and a severe lack of CPS/social workers to handle these issues when they arise.
2) Lack of funding. I'm talking about what actually ends up trickling down to the actual school after everyone and their mother on the federal/state/district level has had their hand in the honeypot. Schools should be able to dictate what they need on the school level. They really do know best because they're living it everyday. Which brings me to...
3) Government in the classroom. I have a huge issue with politicians who have never stepped foot in a classroom as an educator making decisions about education. Federal mandates don't work. For instance, my state currently has a law that if your school is found to be a PLA school your Principal must be removed and cannot be a Principal again anywhere in the state. Keep in mind these Principals and Teachers at these schools are often without tenure and fresh out of school themselves because no one with tenure is going to take a position in a PLA school without incentives. It's a pretty ridiculous law that was formed by non-educators. Especially those who live out in the state here and have no idea how to run an urban school.
5) Teaching to the test when we should be teaching formidable real-life skills. The utopian notion that every child should attend college and should test on a proficient level is a disservice to all children. I don't want to buy everyone a trophy. But I do want to give a kid the skills to make a living if he is not able to get into college/isn't "made" for school.
And those are just tip of the iceberg. To me a system that doesn't recognize that we are individuals who learn at different paces and on different levels is a flawed system. At the very least we need to adopt a system that doesn't just use a standardized test score as a benchmark for success. We should be evaluating student all-around growth instead. We should also be targeting students realistically and helping them obtain skills to be successful in life. This "college readiness" bullshite for a kid that is barely passing, doesn't want to be at school, and will probably drop out at an early age is ridiculous. Teach the kid how to balance a checkbook, write a resume. How to hammer a nail, wire a house, rebuild an engine, etc. At the very least give them those skills so that they can be a productive member of the work force. And for those students that are college bound, work to get them ready for college with courses tailored to their needs/strengths/weaknesses.
5
Posted on 5/7/13 at 6:57 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
1) Lack of parental involvement.
Bingo! That's definitely the biggest issue IMO. Unfortunately there's not all that much we can do to change that, except maybe make a reality show where Snooki and a Kardashian tutor people (god help us all).
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:05 pm to BluegrassBelle
The US should emulate Germany and some other European countries and put more of our students into vocational training at earlier ages.
Not everybody is going to pass algebra.
Not everybody is capable of going to college.
That would solve many of the problems we have in many of our schools, but there would be cries of RACISM and for now, that is still an effective method of halting any kind of real discussion.
Sometimes I feel like we are rapidly transforming ourselves into a Third World country.
Not everybody is going to pass algebra.
Not everybody is capable of going to college.
That would solve many of the problems we have in many of our schools, but there would be cries of RACISM and for now, that is still an effective method of halting any kind of real discussion.
Sometimes I feel like we are rapidly transforming ourselves into a Third World country.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:10 pm to wmr
IMO the most important part of learning is in the early years. The private school I went to went from Pre-K3 - 7th grade and out of the class of 20'ish kids I think 14-15+ went to college.
People need to stop emphasizing on High school learning and start emphasizing on elementary.
eta: In other words kids have to learn how to learn before they can learn.
People need to stop emphasizing on High school learning and start emphasizing on elementary.
eta: In other words kids have to learn how to learn before they can learn.
This post was edited on 5/7/13 at 7:11 pm
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:17 pm to BluegrassBelle
Warning this will be long.
A few of the things mentioned like advanced classes, scholarships to math and science or liberal arts grade / high schools are available, but lack of parental involvement or willingness of the parent to encourage the student to reach their potential makes it hard for some capable students to take advantage of these opportunities.
Government funding of so many programs etc is killing the funding for things we really need. Take x amount of dollars and give it to fewer programs who can do more with the money. Every organizations has overhead and fixed costs, having so many programs means this total fixed cost figure is a much higher figure than if the money went to a few extreme well run programs. This helps to pay teachers more and attract better talent. The teachers can't be expected to inspire students to achieve when most of them are not even close to the best and brightest. (of course not all teachers are bad)
This country does not value education in or culture. Why would a kid care about getting a good gpa? All they have ever seen as role models were sports stars and movie stars. Again this has to do with parental involvement.
Most of the things people have said really boil down to money and parental involvement. I think the curriculum is fine (except for the entire nations understanding of the proper way to teach math) trade school is an investment in ones future that a high school grad can make and some people are late bloomers. I think deciding whether it not a kid can succeed in college before a junior or senior year is almost criminal. I think a good teacher is one who inspires a student to achieve beyond what he thinks he can. Smaller teacher / student ratio will keep kids accountable and give better feedback which will maybe ihigher pay will give better teachers who can inspire students and show them he importance of education.
I'll stop ranting but money and time will fix all.
A few of the things mentioned like advanced classes, scholarships to math and science or liberal arts grade / high schools are available, but lack of parental involvement or willingness of the parent to encourage the student to reach their potential makes it hard for some capable students to take advantage of these opportunities.
Government funding of so many programs etc is killing the funding for things we really need. Take x amount of dollars and give it to fewer programs who can do more with the money. Every organizations has overhead and fixed costs, having so many programs means this total fixed cost figure is a much higher figure than if the money went to a few extreme well run programs. This helps to pay teachers more and attract better talent. The teachers can't be expected to inspire students to achieve when most of them are not even close to the best and brightest. (of course not all teachers are bad)
This country does not value education in or culture. Why would a kid care about getting a good gpa? All they have ever seen as role models were sports stars and movie stars. Again this has to do with parental involvement.
Most of the things people have said really boil down to money and parental involvement. I think the curriculum is fine (except for the entire nations understanding of the proper way to teach math) trade school is an investment in ones future that a high school grad can make and some people are late bloomers. I think deciding whether it not a kid can succeed in college before a junior or senior year is almost criminal. I think a good teacher is one who inspires a student to achieve beyond what he thinks he can. Smaller teacher / student ratio will keep kids accountable and give better feedback which will maybe ihigher pay will give better teachers who can inspire students and show them he importance of education.
I'll stop ranting but money and time will fix all.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:18 pm to BluegrassBelle
They don't want us educated, they want us obedient. We have dumbed our public schools down to the lowest common denominator. I was there, I remember. The only things I learned were how to write a 3 point essay, how to spell "mississippi", and that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the greatest person ever.
The problem is too much undo influence by the federal government. Because their education money comes with strings, under-funded school districts take the "easy" money offered by the fed. However, if the school district doesn't implement the curriculum changes or lunch menu changes the government wants, that money disappears. This keeps the schools towing the Federal line on every issue.
With the power of teachers unions, bad teachers can't be fired and good teachers can rarely be rewarded. Also, any government solutions designed to actually help the students will get pigeonholed by the union.
Not everyone needs to go to college. There are millions of high paying jobs in skilled labor that we can't fill because high school kids are told they must go to college and that physical labor should be looked down on. There needs to be a greater focus on teaching real skills and promoting careers in trades.
The biggest issue, however is that parents flat out don't give a shite about their children or their education. The best teacher in the world can't teach a child that sees no value in education, does not want to learn, and is only there because he has to be. Until the culture that promotes this behavior can be changed, there is no hope for most inner-city school districts.
The problem is too much undo influence by the federal government. Because their education money comes with strings, under-funded school districts take the "easy" money offered by the fed. However, if the school district doesn't implement the curriculum changes or lunch menu changes the government wants, that money disappears. This keeps the schools towing the Federal line on every issue.
With the power of teachers unions, bad teachers can't be fired and good teachers can rarely be rewarded. Also, any government solutions designed to actually help the students will get pigeonholed by the union.
Not everyone needs to go to college. There are millions of high paying jobs in skilled labor that we can't fill because high school kids are told they must go to college and that physical labor should be looked down on. There needs to be a greater focus on teaching real skills and promoting careers in trades.
The biggest issue, however is that parents flat out don't give a shite about their children or their education. The best teacher in the world can't teach a child that sees no value in education, does not want to learn, and is only there because he has to be. Until the culture that promotes this behavior can be changed, there is no hope for most inner-city school districts.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:21 pm to kingbob
quote:
They don't want us educated, they want us obedient. We have dumbed our public schools down to the lowest common denominator. I was there, I remember. The only things I learned were how to write a 3 point essay, how to spell "mississippi", and that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was the greatest person ever.
Someone likes the late George Carlin
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:21 pm to wmr
It is not true that not everyone can pass algebra. This is a jaded view that has started to apron up because the system isn't working. Not everyone is willing to put in the time to pass algebra or whatever math course they didn't understand before they got to algebra. By these are kids we are talking about, parents need to inspire them, or we could provide enough quality teachers for all the students in the country to give them the chance.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:33 pm to BluegrassBelle
I think that up until a certain point, 5th grade or so, the testing system could be alright. About 7th grade, outside of math, you should be given reading assignments then have to write essays and reports on everything you read. Receive points for discussing subjects in class and lose them if you don't. I've always retained more information that way and I think it would be successful in schools.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:38 pm to BluegrassBelle
I haven't read a response but when I grab my laptop I will write a well thought out point of view from my perspective.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:39 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
It is not true that not everyone can pass algebra. This is a jaded view that has started to apron up because the system isn't working. Not everyone is willing to put in the time to pass algebra or whatever math course they didn't understand before they got to algebra. By these are kids we are talking about, parents need to inspire them, or we could provide enough quality teachers for all the students in the country to give them the chance.
Here I have to respectfully disagree. Because I work in a building with a large special education population. Right now in some of our MMD classrooms (Mild Mental Disability), we have 6th grade students who are reading and writing on a 1st grade level. Not because the "want" isn't there for the student or teacher, but because they literally have medically documented disabilities that don't allow the same kind of educational progression as a "normal" student.
These are the same kids that they think if you just give a reader or a scribe during testing that it magically "fixes" their disability. And that their test score should count the same as an AP kid as a result.
This post was edited on 5/7/13 at 7:41 pm
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:40 pm to tduecen
quote:
I haven't read a response but when I grab my laptop I will write a well thought out point of view from my perspective.
Looking forward to it.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:49 pm to BluegrassBelle
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:54 pm to BluegrassBelle
Special education is certainly different I was speaking strip normal students in normal classrooms.
ETA: I do believe we teach math in an inefficient way, but still in a way the students can and should learn. I say this after working in deferent levels of mathematics education for over 6 years (plus countless hours of tutoring and learning different ways to teach different students).
ETA: I do believe we teach math in an inefficient way, but still in a way the students can and should learn. I say this after working in deferent levels of mathematics education for over 6 years (plus countless hours of tutoring and learning different ways to teach different students).
This post was edited on 5/7/13 at 7:58 pm
Posted on 5/7/13 at 7:57 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
Special education is certainly different I was speaking strip normal students in normal classrooms.
That's my point though. Those kids test scores count against you/for you just the same as an AP kid's scores when evaluating teachers and schools.
We also can't just ignore those kids either because in a lot of low-performing schools they're close to 1/3 of the population. At the very least we need to stop counting their scores as the same and start working towards giving them skills so that they can function in society.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 8:01 pm to BluegrassBelle
Not to be crude but how challenged are the students you are discussing? Are they in regular classes?
Is special education and special needs the same? Or are you talking about students who have been passed along the system and are simply so far behind they can't even begin to comprehend the concepts?
Is special education and special needs the same? Or are you talking about students who have been passed along the system and are simply so far behind they can't even begin to comprehend the concepts?
Posted on 5/7/13 at 8:04 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
I think the curriculum is fine (except for the entire nations understanding of the proper way to teach math)
YES!!!
I went to one of the better schools in the state of Alabama and got an absolutely awful education in Math. My Alg 2/Trig teacher couldn't even explain to me what the purpose of a formula was and how it worked. It was...you see this problem...use this formula. So many people out there believe they are bad at math, but I'm more convinced no one knows how to teach it.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 8:08 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
Not to be crude but how challenged are the students you are discussing? Are they in regular classes?
Some of them are mainstreamed, some aren't. Most at the very least receive collaborative teaching in a mainstream classroom in an effort to help them learn the same concepts/etc.
quote:
Is special education and special needs the same? Or are you talking about students who have been passed along the system and are simply so far behind they can't even begin to comprehend the concepts?
Same thing, just a different term IMO.
Students who have been passed on are a whole other issue. This is where I think Montessori learning would probably be of a bigger benefit to those kids (i.e. learn at your own pace, respect for the child's individual development).
Posted on 5/7/13 at 8:09 pm to Duke
The people who know how to teach it get paid so much more money to do almost anything else. Also it takes a little more patience and work on the students part to grasp it because it is harder than see problem, use formula.
Also a lot of kids psyche themselves out with math and have ready given up before they even start. It takes a lot of one on one time with them to build the confidence. That can probably be said about a lot of subjects.
Also a lot of kids psyche themselves out with math and have ready given up before they even start. It takes a lot of one on one time with them to build the confidence. That can probably be said about a lot of subjects.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 8:22 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
Also it takes a little more patience and work on the students part to grasp it because it is harder than see problem, use formula.
Certainly. Practice is the key. Also seeing a practical application never hurts. Math can at times be too lost in theory. The average person needs something to connect it to.
quote:
Also a lot of kids psyche themselves out with math and have ready given up before they even start. It takes a lot of one on one time with them to build the confidence. That can probably be said about a lot of subjects.
Math is probably the worst on that front though. At least in my experience and I'm fairly good at it.
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