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re: Spinoff: Discussion on Education in the US
Posted on 5/7/13 at 8:48 pm to BluegrassBelle
Posted on 5/7/13 at 8:48 pm to BluegrassBelle
1. Parents/Teachers Working Together - It isn't so much parental involvement it is teachers and parents working together. If a teacher is working with the parents of children the children can maximize their learning potential. A lot of times the teachers blame the parents and the parents blame the teachers when both groups should hold each other accountable for the well being of the child.
2. Schools - So many schools are worried about their test scores for government funding that they are funneling lesson plans to mirror what is on these standardized test. This restricts a lot of creative teachers and places them in a bottle. The students find this boring in a lot of cases because a lot of it is just memory. Hence a lot of fill in blank, multiple choice, and true or false test. Teachers are worried about these test as well because students failing hinders them and for many new teachers it can cost them their jobs.
3. The Teachers- Teaching is a fall back profession for a lot of people. They go to college and they don't know what they want to do so they get into teaching just because they earned a degree in a field like History, Art, etc there isn't a whole lot of options. This leads to individuals treating it like a 9-5 job where they don't give it their all every day. People who want to teach you can tell they have enthusiastic every day, they are creative, and they want to better their kids and go out of their way to do so.
I would actually be all for the US adopting a different teaching model, instead of kids going to school only 9 months out the year (really like 6/7 if you include holidays and what not) have them go year round only make school shorter. Also focusing more in on Math, Science, and English instead of some of the other subjects. History is great and it is always great to know but a lot of it is just memory, their doesn't require a whole lot of thinking involved. Students need to be engaged and to be engaged you need the right kinda teachers and that requires the right kind of people. When I hear a teach consistently say they are ready for end of the day/week then I feel sorry for their students because they are just clocking in and clocking out and not giving their students 100%. I think they should get rid of all multiple choice, fill in blank, and true or false test and make it more critical thinking.
2. Schools - So many schools are worried about their test scores for government funding that they are funneling lesson plans to mirror what is on these standardized test. This restricts a lot of creative teachers and places them in a bottle. The students find this boring in a lot of cases because a lot of it is just memory. Hence a lot of fill in blank, multiple choice, and true or false test. Teachers are worried about these test as well because students failing hinders them and for many new teachers it can cost them their jobs.
3. The Teachers- Teaching is a fall back profession for a lot of people. They go to college and they don't know what they want to do so they get into teaching just because they earned a degree in a field like History, Art, etc there isn't a whole lot of options. This leads to individuals treating it like a 9-5 job where they don't give it their all every day. People who want to teach you can tell they have enthusiastic every day, they are creative, and they want to better their kids and go out of their way to do so.
I would actually be all for the US adopting a different teaching model, instead of kids going to school only 9 months out the year (really like 6/7 if you include holidays and what not) have them go year round only make school shorter. Also focusing more in on Math, Science, and English instead of some of the other subjects. History is great and it is always great to know but a lot of it is just memory, their doesn't require a whole lot of thinking involved. Students need to be engaged and to be engaged you need the right kinda teachers and that requires the right kind of people. When I hear a teach consistently say they are ready for end of the day/week then I feel sorry for their students because they are just clocking in and clocking out and not giving their students 100%. I think they should get rid of all multiple choice, fill in blank, and true or false test and make it more critical thinking.
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Posted on 5/7/13 at 9:01 pm to tduecen
quote:
I would actually be all for the US adopting a different teaching model, instead of kids going to school only 9 months out the year (really like 6/7 if you include holidays and what not) have them go year round only make school shorter. Also focusing more in on Math, Science, and English instead of some of the other subjects
I like that idea as well.
Start school a little bit later (more so for your teenage kids) and focus on those three subjects. All of them require thinking and a degree of creativity. The logic of grammar and math flow well together imo. Also time with computers and I don't mean games. Actually sitting down and writing programs. Start em young too. They don't have to write the next windows, but it's a useful skill and requires logic to execute.
Start introducing them to the basics of chemistry and physics around middle school. That's basically math anyway. Nothing too advanced in the math department, just to give them something to apply their math skills too.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 9:07 pm to Duke
You can't forget about history, it allows you to learn from others mistakes to understand how the world developed. Other than that what else is there? Music class? an art class?
Posted on 5/7/13 at 9:09 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
You can't forget about history, it allows you to learn from others mistakes to understand how the world developed.
I guess I left it out of my post. I know you can't forget about it and History needs to be taught. I'm just going in tDuck's direction for expanding those three subjects focus. History can stay the same. Music and Art work well as electives, and could go right along with the computer science stuff mentioned earlier.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 9:12 pm to Duke
A lot of electives can be introduced and in the later years students can focus on one or two but the 3 main core classes should remain. I am all for making history an elective and actually focusing more in US/Local governments so students actually have an idea of how these work.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 9:14 pm to Duke
Honestly i went to a quality public school and that is how it was done. The model isn't difficult it is all about funding to pay good teachers, and people to create a culture of success for the students.
And a student who receives a quality education will be more likely to instill the value of a good education in their own children. It really works both ways, like how you hear about a cycle of poverty.
And a student who receives a quality education will be more likely to instill the value of a good education in their own children. It really works both ways, like how you hear about a cycle of poverty.
Posted on 5/7/13 at 9:22 pm to Mizzeaux
The World is Flat opened my eyes to Education in the US. Specifically in regards to where we rank among other industrialized and even some emerging companies.
I agree that school should be year round and I support the standard core curriculam. The fact that Alabama is fighting against adopting it has made me begin to seriously consider educating my children elsewhere. This is in addition to the states decision to offer tax incentives for transfering children from under performing schools rather than re-investing in those schools to help them meet standards.
Overall, I dont think education is truly valued in this country and we are going to continue to fall further behind as a result
I agree that school should be year round and I support the standard core curriculam. The fact that Alabama is fighting against adopting it has made me begin to seriously consider educating my children elsewhere. This is in addition to the states decision to offer tax incentives for transfering children from under performing schools rather than re-investing in those schools to help them meet standards.
Overall, I dont think education is truly valued in this country and we are going to continue to fall further behind as a result
Posted on 5/7/13 at 10:41 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
These are the same kids that they think if you just give a reader or a scribe during testing that it magically "fixes" their disability. And that their test score should count the same as an AP kid as a result.
A reader or scribe SHOULD be prescribed in the kid's IEP based on some scientifically based reason - not just to magically fix something. If (and it is a big "if") it is based on that, it SHOULD help. I've read many a test aloud and most are done because the kids have problems with the written vocabulary (stemming from many different disabilities), not the subject matter.
Now, you nailed the test scores issue - blame No Child Left Behind for that. However, states can take waivers now without federal sanctions . . . at least until congress can agree on how to fix it.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 6:49 am to Bham4Tide
quote:
A reader or scribe SHOULD be prescribed in the kid's IEP based on some scientifically based reason - not just to magically fix something. If (and it is a big "if") it is based on that, it SHOULD help. I've read many a test aloud and most are done because the kids have problems with the written vocabulary (stemming from many different disabilities), not the subject matter.
I've read and scribed for ECE and ESL kids as well. While it helps for some, there are some kids that it's just a bandaid on a gaping wound. Especially some of our borderline MMD kids get some assistance from those accommodations but those who have designed the standardized testing and use those scores to determine whether your school is performing takes it like it should be a magical fix for their low scores.
quote:
Now, you nailed the test scores issue - blame No Child Left Behind for that. However, states can take waivers now without federal sanctions . . . at least until congress can agree on how to fix it.
Federally, yes you have waivers but most states still have interventions on the state level that force you to either re-staff, get rid of your administration, or adopt a number of other interventions. Those you cannot get waivers for, at least not here in the state of Kentucky. And it certainly doesn't help that there's a lot of political posturing right now in the state to try to push through charter schools and vouchers (the state is going to attempt to take over the largest county in the district to try to force that).
Posted on 5/8/13 at 6:54 am to tduecen
quote:
2. Schools - So many schools are worried about their test scores for government funding that they are funneling lesson plans to mirror what is on these standardized test. This restricts a lot of creative teachers and places them in a bottle. The students find this boring in a lot of cases because a lot of it is just memory. Hence a lot of fill in blank, multiple choice, and true or false test. Teachers are worried about these test as well because students failing hinders them and for many new teachers it can cost them their jobs.
I know for us it's less about government funding and more about people keeping their jobs at this point (as you said). The state of Kentucky has adopted some pretty harsh penalties on the state level for administrators and teachers that are found to be part of a PLA school.
It's truly a sad situation because you have so many young teachers that are placed in low-performing schools out of the gate because all of your tenured teachers are at better schools. While it's a good experience for teachers, it's difficult to raise scores while you also have teachers learning on the job. And with restaffing interventions that mean you also have a very large revolving door every 3 years or so.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 7:00 am to BluegrassBelle
A lot of teachers here (new ones especially) they get graded on number of students who are not passing these test. First time it happens you then get more observations and they require you to retake a certain class. Second time it is similar and a third it can cost you your job, it kinda sucks because it forces a teacher to worry about these test and create lesson plans that are test centric.
Saw in rural/urban areas that within 5 years 50% of new teachers are fired/quit due to low test scores/burnout. Seems high until you really think about the turnover at some of these places.
Saw in rural/urban areas that within 5 years 50% of new teachers are fired/quit due to low test scores/burnout. Seems high until you really think about the turnover at some of these places.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 7:22 am to tduecen
quote:
A lot of teachers here (new ones especially) they get graded on number of students who are not passing these test. First time it happens you then get more observations and they require you to retake a certain class. Second time it is similar and a third it can cost you your job, it kinda sucks because it forces a teacher to worry about these test and create lesson plans that are test centric.
They're pushing into that kind of model here. One of the new state interventions is the evaluation/incentive model. If you're in a PLA school that receives one of these interventions your evaluations/observations double. Then if the scores don't come up they start implementing punishment which could eventually result in the loss of their job or at the very least a forced transfer.
quote:
Saw in rural/urban areas that within 5 years 50% of new teachers are fired/quit due to low test scores/burnout. Seems high until you really think about the turnover at some of these places.
In my 6 years here there are roughly 10 teachers that are the same teachers that were here when I started. We have 85 all together on staff.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 8:14 am to BluegrassBelle
I'm in a data driven system but we're not to the point we start firing people for students performing poorly on tests.
The biggest difference I've seen from high performing schools and those not making AYP is parent involvement. In the higher performing schools if their child starts making below and A or B they are calling and emailing wanting to know why and they are scheduling conferences if they aren't satisfied with your answer. In the lower performing schools I may get 5 parents show up for Open House when I have 100+ kids in all my classes. Parents don't say anything at all until the last 2 weeks of school when they realize little Johnny is going to fail despite numerous phone calls home that you've made. And generally they don't care at all which means the kids have to be self driven since no one is pushing them at home.
ETA: Spoke to soon. I won't be voting for this guy again.
The biggest difference I've seen from high performing schools and those not making AYP is parent involvement. In the higher performing schools if their child starts making below and A or B they are calling and emailing wanting to know why and they are scheduling conferences if they aren't satisfied with your answer. In the lower performing schools I may get 5 parents show up for Open House when I have 100+ kids in all my classes. Parents don't say anything at all until the last 2 weeks of school when they realize little Johnny is going to fail despite numerous phone calls home that you've made. And generally they don't care at all which means the kids have to be self driven since no one is pushing them at home.
ETA: Spoke to soon. I won't be voting for this guy again.
This post was edited on 5/8/13 at 8:53 am
Posted on 5/8/13 at 8:57 am to BluegrassBelle
I am in the process of writing a business model for an NPO focused on education. It is going to take some real money and committed people to get launched, but I really believe it is something that could catch on if the test case goes well.
Right now I am thinking that it would have to be a post high school test case simply due to all the red tape it would take to get approved at a lower level of education. The key idea though is that it wouldnt require people to keep pumping money into the same school. The idea is that once the school is set up, the money flow and more importantly the SUPPORT of people who have graduated will keep the program alive. That way new money could be used to expand the footprint and offer extremely low cost or free education to as many people as possible.
It is a lot of work while holding on to a job, but ir is something I had thought about for a number of years and I really believe it will work.
Right now I am thinking that it would have to be a post high school test case simply due to all the red tape it would take to get approved at a lower level of education. The key idea though is that it wouldnt require people to keep pumping money into the same school. The idea is that once the school is set up, the money flow and more importantly the SUPPORT of people who have graduated will keep the program alive. That way new money could be used to expand the footprint and offer extremely low cost or free education to as many people as possible.
It is a lot of work while holding on to a job, but ir is something I had thought about for a number of years and I really believe it will work.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 9:30 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
1) Lack of parental involvement. We usually have to resort to catering food in order to get parents/guardians to show up for parent/teacher conferences and that costs $$ that the school can ill afford to do for all events catered towards parents. We have parents that block our numbers when we try to call, cuss us out, hang up on us, etc. Kids that are living with multiple relatives because parents are locked up/drugged out. It's incredibly frustrating and there's no easy solution when you have states cutting social services and a severe lack of CPS/social workers to handle these issues when they arise.
2) Lack of funding. I'm talking about what actually ends up trickling down to the actual school after everyone and their mother on the federal/state/district level has had their hand in the honeypot. Schools should be able to dictate what they need on the school level. They really do know best because they're living it everyday. Which brings me to...
3) Government in the classroom. I have a huge issue with politicians who have never stepped foot in a classroom as an educator making decisions about education. Federal mandates don't work. For instance, my state currently has a law that if your school is found to be a PLA school your Principal must be removed and cannot be a Principal again anywhere in the state. Keep in mind these Principals and Teachers at these schools are often without tenure and fresh out of school themselves because no one with tenure is going to take a position in a PLA school without incentives. It's a pretty ridiculous law that was formed by non-educators. Especially those who live out in the state here and have no idea how to run an urban school.
5) Teaching to the test when we should be teaching formidable real-life skills. The utopian notion that every child should attend college and should test on a proficient level is a disservice to all children. I don't want to buy everyone a trophy. But I do want to give a kid the skills to make a living if he is not able to get into college/isn't "made" for school.
You made some great points. Most all are dead-on.
I'd really like to see a chart of US education rankings by decade. I'm particularly interested in comparing trends before and after 1980.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 10:28 am to BluegrassBelle
Not to go to deep into this but I'd say that our educational problems lie as much in the students as it does with the educators ...
We have a society that as a whole doesn't really want to learn but rather find satisfaction in other facets of life; sports, entertainment, etc.
We have a society that as a whole doesn't really want to learn but rather find satisfaction in other facets of life; sports, entertainment, etc.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 11:11 am to McRebel42
To me it is the adults that have the responsibility to instill a value of education in these students (not talking about college level students). You can expect people that young to see the benefit of working hard and getting a quality education without some serious help from the influential adults in their lives. A large part of that is because as unsaid earlier, the media and culture of our country doesn't celebrate educational and scientific achievement as it should.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 11:23 am to tduecen
quote:
1. Parents/Teachers Working Together - It isn't so much parental involvement it is teachers and parents working together. If a teacher is working with the parents of children the children can maximize their learning potential. A lot of times the teachers blame the parents and the parents blame the teachers when both groups should hold each other accountable for the well being of the child.
I know there are bad teachers out there who are going to do things their way, regardless of what the parents want. But you would be stunned at how many parents don't care. My Mom was a teacher, and she still has lots of friends teaching. They have sat through parent/teacher conference hours without a single parent showing up. If the kids know their parents don't care about how they're doing in school, they won't put forth the effort.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 11:59 am to TeLeFaWx
quote:
- More math and science focus.
- Less teachers unions.
- More math and science focus.
- Voucher system.
- More math and science focus
This in a nutshell.
Posted on 5/8/13 at 6:34 pm to Bama Bird
quote:
While completely unrealistic, I think the most effective education would be to privatize it entirely, while finding a way to do it for free for middle and lower class kids (less than 100,000 total income).
Yeah i wish, but it would never happen
And for the kids having a choice or whatever to pursue trade school or college prep school, there would NEVER BE A CHOICE because society doesn't want to accept the fact that there are students that just are not as bright as others. They want to force them into(in their minds at least)roles where they have to be catered to ridiculously, so much that it becomes a special ed class because of one slow guy or girl. And the process continues to let people like this in because you just absolutely cannot and must not discriminate.
So, basically nothing will change..sadly!
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