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re: Do you believe in Evolution?
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:38 am to KyleOrtonsMustache
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:38 am to KyleOrtonsMustache
quote:
Who are we to prescribe what God should and shouldn't do?
If God created us, he created our consciousness, our morals and our ability to reason. Our logical consciousness must therefore be the basis by which we judge any idea of God. If we are wrong and we meet a different idea of God when we die, we must first ask "why"?
This post was edited on 5/27/14 at 12:41 am
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Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:41 am to KyleOrtonsMustache
quote:
I struggle with this as well. However, I think we want God to save us from pain and suffering. We expect a loving god to erase all the pain in the world. I expect him to erase the medical problems my 6 year old has. But, to me…that seems pretty self centered…and demanding of God.
I just play the cards I'm dealt. And sometimes, like in the case of my 6 year old…we get dealt a crappy hand. But, just because little man suffers doesn't mean God doesn't care or even love us. It just means that life sucks….for everyone….who ever lived.
Does that make God a cruel guy. I say no. I say we live in a cruel world. God gives us peace and security to deal with that world.
A cruel world, created by an all powerful being who could have created it in any fashion?
First, I appreciate your civil and entirely reasonable responses. Bravo.
However, it seems odd to me that God would create a world we'd have to "deal with."
I have a perfectly healthy 13 year old boy. A friend of mind has one the same age who is stricken with a horrible affliction and has been since birth. One day at church (when they were like 5) they had on the same clothes--and had their picture taken together. That image has stuck with me.
The typical response? That it was "God's Will" for that other boy to be stricken, and that God would provide for this other family, that this was a test, etc etc. But it seems so arbitrary and unfair--in fact, it seems random, and like a place where God in fact doesn't really get into the minutia of day to day life on Earth.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:42 am to DirtyDawg
quote:
But with the free will we were given
So do we have free will or is there a grand plan? There cannot be both.
eta: I struggle with the question in my faith often. It really bothers me.
This post was edited on 5/27/14 at 12:44 am
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:43 am to DirtyDawg
quote:
But with the free will we were given we threw away the world without suffering. He is benevolent but also just. The world is fallen and God has to let it be that way, humans picked it.
An all powerful God created only two human beings, and then allowed one of them (Eve) to frig it up?
DOES NOT COMPUTE BRO.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:45 am to Grievous Angel
That's how I feel.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:48 am to UMRealist
quote:
UMRealist
We definitely have free will. But the tough part is understanding that God knows what will happen, but limits his intervention in order to preserve free will. I know I struggle with this thought
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:49 am to Grievous Angel
quote:
A cruel world, created by an all powerful being who could have created it in any fashion?
I think the real question is wether God created a cruel world, or we humans have corrupted that world. IF we humans have then why did god make it where we could? That is a question I don't have the answer to.
I look at my kid, who has done nothing wrong but has already had more operations than you and I will probably have combined and I ask "Why?" a lot.
Someone could answer that it's "God's will" to me and I would kick them squarely in the dick with as much force as I could muster.
Bad things happen. Could god have made us live in a perfect world? Yes. Do I know why he didn't? No. So I guess I better get along in the world I'm in and quit worrying about what I think is right or what he should have done.
That's just how I do it….and like I said…I just mainly shite stuff out on a keyboard.
This post was edited on 5/27/14 at 12:51 am
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:49 am to DirtyDawg
quote:
That's how I feel.
It's a big struggle at my house. I go to church with my wife, and try to sit quietly and participate to the extent that it doesn't make me a hypocrite. It's important to her. And in fact I can get very defensive over religion, as I have a lot of respect for it. We have a bit of an unspoken understanding in this area.
Some of the biggest assholes I've ever come across are militant atheists.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:51 am to DirtyDawg
quote:
But with the free will we were given we threw away the world without suffering.
But it wasn't free will, given that God knew it would happen prior to the creation event.
The only way theism logically works is if God does not have foreknowledge of events, which all the monotheistic religions grant him. If God knows what will happen, all faults of humanity and all future circumstances are the fault of him and him alone.
quote:
He is benevolent but also just.
There are several issues with this.
First, benevolence does not include infinite punishment for finite crimes. The two major monotheistic religions on Earth believe in this concept, and while fringe offshoots believe differently those are the orthodox beliefs.
Second, benevolence nor justice can include a reality in which humanity is rewarded or punished based on choices that result from a design flaw inherent to base creation.
quote:
The world is fallen and God has to let it be that way, humans picked it.
Only if God isn't omnipotent. If he is, then God picked it.
quote:
God gave us a way to get back to a perfect creation though-The sacrifice of His Son.
I believe Jesus existed, and I believe he had some very advanced moral ideas for his time. I believe much good can come from his words written in the New Testament, though he clearly believed he was something I don't believe he was if the NT reflects his existence accurately (which is questionable).
That being said, if God is all powerful, why is Jesus necessary? Why couldn't God just forgive us without blood sacrifice? God in human form dying to absolve us from a predestined sinful state seems like a construct of man and not the plan of an omnipotent deity.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:52 am to DirtyDawg
I agree with you but it seems like every christian I know likes to attribute everything that happens, good or bad, to "god's plan". I don't know how it's stated in the biblical text so I'm not really sure where the church falls on it.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:54 am to KyleOrtonsMustache
quote:
I think the real question is wether God created a cruel world, or we humans have corrupted that world. IF we humans have then why did god make it where we could? That is a question I don't have the answer to.
That's a very honest assessment. Well said.
quote:
I look at my kid, who has done nothing wrong but has already had more operations than you and I will probably have combined and I ask "Why?" a lot.
I'm sorry man. I truly am. This destroys me.
quote:
Bad things happen. Could god have made us live in a perfect world? Yes. Do I know why he didn't? No. So I guess I better get along in the world I'm in and quit worrying about what I think is right or what he should have done.
And this is where I think we take a different path on the fork in the road. This is where my limited, decidedly un-Diety like understanding of things causes me to call EVERYTHING into question.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:55 am to KSGamecock
Odd that the states consistently rank higher in education quality appear to be greener. Hmm... what must this mean? What sort of inferences can we make?
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:56 am to Grievous Angel
quote:
Some of the biggest assholes I've ever come across are militant atheists.
This is because many "atheists" are hipsters rebelling against their parents/childhood faith. Just as there are many "Christians" who cant defend their faith, there are tons of atheists who couldn't defend their lack of belief to save their lives.
It's why theologians frequently win debates regarding religion, because they are up against people who don't know why they don't believe.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:57 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
First, benevolence does not include infinite punishment for finite crimes. The two major monotheistic religions on Earth believe in this concept, and while fringe offshoots believe differently those are the orthodox beliefs.
Second, benevolence nor justice can include a reality in which humanity is rewarded or punished based on choices that result from a design flaw inherent to base creation.
Reading list. Need it. Stat.
If you came up with this on your own, damn.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 12:58 am to Grievous Angel
Anyway, back to evolution. Theist or not, rejecting is rejecting the world around us.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 1:01 am to UMRealist
quote:
I don't know how it's stated in the biblical text so I'm not really sure where the church falls on it.
I'm very interested in this too. I'll try to look into when I wake up.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 1:02 am to Grievous Angel
quote:
And this is where I think we take a different path on the fork in the road. This is where my limited, decidedly un-Diety like understanding of things causes me to call EVERYTHING into question.
I don't think you're in the wrong here. It difficult to get around that and I don't know that I have any answer that'll help you.
I do know, for me, that God has helped me in many ways to get through the difficulties of life. Some would say I could put my faith in a chair and get the same results, but I tried that too and it didn't work. I live in t-town…we should get together and figure this shite out.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 1:03 am to UMRealist
quote:
I agree with you but it seems like every christian I know likes to attribute everything that happens, good or bad, to "god's plan". I don't know how it's stated in the biblical text so I'm not really sure where the church falls on it.
Put it in real terms. How about the people who are "blessed" that they didn't get hit by a tornado to which their decidedly "unblessed" neighbors fell victim? You know them--you have them on your friends list.
Sorry. Makes me want to slap somebody.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 1:06 am to Grievous Angel
quote:
DOES NOT COMPUTE BRO
Even God could not comprehend the ability for women to frick shite up.
Posted on 5/27/14 at 1:06 am to KyleOrtonsMustache
quote:
I do know, for me, that God has helped me in many ways to get through the difficulties of life. Some would say I could put my faith in a chair and get the same results, but I tried that too and it didn't work. I live in t-town…we should get together and figure this shite out.
Would love to. And an SECRant gold medal to you, sir.
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