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re: So what does this offense bring us in 2020?

Posted on 1/20/20 at 10:42 pm to
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25568 posts
Posted on 1/20/20 at 10:42 pm to
The truth of the matter is that we suck on 2nd down.
It doesnt matter run or pass.
It doesnt matter if the first play was run or pass.

Our 2nd downs in 2019 were among the worst in conference.

2nd down failure (run or pass..
After a run or pass) is what really doomed our offense in 2019.
Not the single 50-50 choice of run pass on the very first play of a drive.

Look closer or again if you dont believe me.
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 1/20/20 at 10:42 pm to
quote:

What? I just proved you wrong about your 1st down idiocy and you want me to "apologize"

2 TD possessions were the result of 1st down runs I just got the sequence wrong but it still doesn't disproves your idiocy
Right, I'm the idiot because I'm showing why Coley is out and Monken is in, and why Kirby made these decisions, and you're sitting here essentially trying to convince us that Coley was doing what Kirby wanted all along.

I mean WTF does Kirby know, right? He obviously believes a fallacy and should just listen to guys like you.

Hell, while you're at it, you should tell Nick Saban he's an idiot too, for basically telling Kirby on TV during the LSU-Clemson game that he had to adapt and do something different.

"Different??" According to you, Coley already adapted and was doing it right. Man, Saban and Kirby are fricking idiots for not just keeping Coley and mimicking the Auburn game. Lord knows we'd be putting up 40 ppg next season if Kirby didn't believe in a fallacy.

ROFL
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25568 posts
Posted on 1/20/20 at 11:07 pm to
quote:

Coley already adapted


He did. If you cant see the difference in the playcalling from the first 4 games to midseason to the end of the season then there isnt much to talk about.

quote:

and was doing it right.

Just because you change the playcalling doesnt mean that the new plays are successful. But Coley apparently listened to the message boards. Over the course of the season, we saw more passes over the middle and more RPOs. But over the course of the season, we were running plays not repped in the offseason with a fatigued WR/OL group. We weren't successful on the new playcalling except for Florida and Baylor. That is why Coley is gone. Because he couldnt find any identity within the offense (even with the playcalling changes through the course of the year)

RD is right. There are message board narratives that are lazy. They are perpetuated despite being half truths or flat out wrong. This is the first time that I have seen blaming a 50/50 choice to start a series for our offensive woes.
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 1/20/20 at 11:14 pm to
quote:

The truth of the matter is that we suck on 2nd down.
It doesnt matter run or pass.
It doesnt matter if the first play was run or pass.

Our 2nd downs in 2019 were among the worst in conference.

2nd down failure (run or pass..
After a run or pass) is what really doomed our offense in 2019.
Not the single 50-50 choice of run pass on the very first play of a drive.

Look closer or again if you dont believe me.
There's way more to it than just, "we suck on 2nd down".

Coley did a lot of things wrong and it made our plays predictable.

I've said this here several times before, but when my wife and daughter are calling out the plays before we run them, and they're doing it consistently, there is something incredibly wrong with our play-caller.


We only converted 9 1st downs in the Auburn game, and that was on only 5 of 14 possessions.

11 possessions with punts, and only 2 of them had a 1st down conversion in it.

9 possessions of 3-and-out. 7 of those had a run on 1st down. And 6 of those had a run on 2nd down.

And all 11 of our punts had an unsuccessful pass on 3rd down. 3rd and 8, 25, 4, 8, 7, 15, 4, 7, 14, 10, 5.


I mean I just don't know how anyone can point at this Auburn game and go, "The Auburn game is an example of Coley doing it right, and proof your assertions of predictable play calling are a fallacy."

We only won that game 21-14, for crap's sake. 21 points, 11 punts, and 9 3-and-outs is an example of our OC not having a problem and proof that calling him predictable is a fallacy??

Sorry, but that's just bullshite.
Posted by RD Dawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
27297 posts
Posted on 1/20/20 at 11:41 pm to
quote:

Right, I'm the idiot because I'm showing why Coley is out and Monken is in,


Nope, you're idiocy was due to fact that you continually made incorrect statements about his 1st down play calling and instead of fessing up you doubled down.

My entire point was that there were issues other than Coley that made this offense what it was.I was pointing out his play calling sequence did in fact change starting with UF...it had to and you just sat around claiming "run,run,pass,punt" and "predictable".Jake,the WR and the OL contributed to the ineptitude along with Coley.

quote:

Coley was doing what Kirby wanted all along.


Kirby certainly has a say so but the only game that I claimed Coley was doing exactly what Kirby wanted was the 2nd half of AU...sorry,and if you don't see his handprints all over the play calling after we got a 21 pt lead you really haven't watched much of Kirby's games.

BTW,Auburn had a very good defense especially their DL.I was pretty happy with going up by 21 pts up after 2 1/2 qtrs.I mean,these guys did hold LSU to 23 pts.

Posted by RD Dawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
27297 posts
Posted on 1/20/20 at 11:48 pm to
quote:

but when my wife and daughter are calling out the plays before we run them, and they're doing it consistently, there is something incredibly wrong with our play-caller.


I remember this "claim" and I actually rewatched the 1st half of UF or AU to see what you were talking about and it was completely unfounded and driven by emotion.

You claimed the offset RB in a shotgun was running to the opposite side off the guard 100% of the time and it wasn't close to being correct.
Posted by RD Dawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
27297 posts
Posted on 1/20/20 at 11:59 pm to
quote:

The Auburn game is an example of Coley doing it right, and proof your assertions of predictable play calling are a fallacy


Dude,I repeatedly said the 1st half ONLY and was 100% correct but for some reason you keep including what we did after we got up 21 pts
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 1/21/20 at 12:05 am to
quote:

He did. If you cant see the difference in the playcalling from the first 4 games to midseason to the end of the season then there isnt much to talk about.
Not only was there very little difference in play-calling from early season to mid-season to end of season (except for the Baylor game there absolutely was), but there was barely any difference from the first half of every game to the second half of every game.

If Zamir White came in during Vanderbilt, it was about a 90% chance he was running a dive up the middle.

And guess what, when he came in during LSU, it was about a 90% chance he was running a dive up the middle.

We'd have a successful throw to Eli Wolf in the first half of a game, and then never throw to him again. Instead, we'd throw 5-6x to Simmons, and he'd drop 4 of them.

People weren't complaining about us running up the middle for no or little gain all the time because it made them feel good or they were delusional and all somehow mistakenly seeing the same false images.

We were all scratching our fricking heads as to why Simmons was the target of the opening game bomb with LSU rather than... ANYBODY else (except Landers).

And we were all miffed as to why Woerner and Robertson were the targets on the final drive in OT against South Carolina instead of Wolf and Blaylock or Pickens. You know, guys who can actually catch.

The head-scratching and dismay in personnel packages and play-calling didn't freaking change all season long, until we got to the Baylor game.

Sure, maybe the run vs pass slightly changed (58/42 run/pass first half of season, to 53/47 run/pass second half of season), but throwing to the wrong players and telegraphing runs didn't.

Not to mention, Coley's route tree combinations were befuddling. I can't be the only one who noticed a lack of usage of the middle of the field, and an abundance of routes that didn't reach the 1st down marker when it was needed.

Look, there's a reason the guy was just replaced and we're seemingly shifting to a "pass to open the run" scheme.

I still can't believe I'm arguing with people who are indirectly suggesting Coley wasn't a problem. And after Kirby has clearly asserted that he was by hiring 3 former OC's who run a different scheme than Coley.

Just craziness.
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 1/21/20 at 12:17 am to
quote:

Dude,I repeatedly said the 1st half ONLY and was 100% correct but for some reason you keep including what we did after we got up 21 pts
You were not 100% correct.

For frick sake you said you quoted the first 3 possessions and you only quoted 2.

You said the 2 TD's we ran in the first half started with runs, they did not. Only 1 did.

We only passed on 1st downs in 3 of 8 possessions in the first half, and 1 of those resulted in a punt.

We ran on 1st down on 5 of 8 possessions in the first half and each one resulted in a 3-and-out.

That is NOT balanced just because there were 7 runs on 1st down and 7 passes on 1st down.

You don't end up with 6 goddamn punts out of 8 possessions, 5 of which are 3-and-outs, and get to tell us that's balanced, there were no problems with the play-calling, and nothing was predictable.


Again, 5 of 8 possessions started with runs that went nowhere and resulted in 3-and-outs.
This post was edited on 1/21/20 at 8:30 am
Posted by meansonny
ATL
Member since Sep 2012
25568 posts
Posted on 1/21/20 at 5:57 am to
What is head scratching is that this entire post points to your problem.

You equate a throw to Simmins as the same playcall early in the season to the middle of the season to the end of the season. You do know that the playcalls arent titled "throw to simmons".
You do know that changing playcalls may not even change the run:pass ratio at all. Believe it or not, there are dozens of ways that we can run or pass.

You seem to equate a failed RPO pass as the same play as a failed slant as the same play as a failed audible check at the line. As a matter of fact, they all net 0 yards and loss of down. Why cant they all he considered the same?

I'm not going to argue with you. Your kids can predict the plays and tell that every inside run call is the exact same dive play.
Posted by BeefDawg
Atlanta
Member since Sep 2012
4747 posts
Posted on 1/21/20 at 7:45 am to
quote:

You seem to equate a failed RPO pass as the same play as a failed slant as the same play as a failed audible check at the line.
No, I don’t.

I’ve simply said or inferred that Coley had these issues:

- He called too many inside runs
- He called too many inside runs from the same or similar formation
- He called too many inside runs with the same personnel groupings (blocking vs hands groups)
- He called too many inside runs on the same down and distance
- He called too many inside runs on early downs
- He opened new possessions with WAY too many inside runs, and runs in general
- He called too many runs from a different formation than most of our passes
- He called too many passes from a different formation than most of our runs
- He over-utilized Zamir White for one particular play (middle dive)
- He under-utilized and misused James Cook in general
- He misused Demetrius Robertson/could definitely be getting more quality production out of him and that speed
- He over-utilized Simmons and Landers, especially at key moments when we needed a successful reception
- He not only grossly under-utilized our TE’s in the pass game, but Woerner consistently signaled likely run play, while Wolf consistently signaled likely pass play
- He not only ran too few screens, but the ones he did run were at bad/predictable times (mostly 3rd down), and nearly every one of them was outside, virtually no middle/inside screens
- He didn’t call near enough intermediate and deep passes
- When he did call intermediate and deep passes, way too often he had our worst hands receivers in, and too often as the primary target
- He grossly under-utilized the middle of the field, in-routes, and crossing routes in the passing game, as the vast majority of passes were out-routes, outside the hash-marks, or to/at the sidelines
- He way too often had too many routes run and stop/cut short of the 1st down marker, especially on 3rd downs
- He ran way too many draw plays and screens on 3rd and long instead of multiple routes to or past the 1st down marker where we could at least take a shot at a reception or PI call
- His route tree combinations were very non-intuitive, poor at spacing and creating voids/helping each other spread out or tie up defenders, and bad at forcing safeties to choose halves or move deep in the secondary/fade away from the box

And all of this combined made it easier for defensive coordinators to game plan and play percentages, and for defenses to predict run vs pass and get the jump on plays.

And you know how I know this is correct?

Because Coley is out and a new OC, plus two other new coaches who were similar OC’s, were all just hired with the explicit purpose of fixing everything I just listed so we don’t put up only 28 ppg again with an offense overflowing with elite talent.

Kirby clearly saw these issues. He didn’t just replace Coley, one of the nations top recruiters, because our receivers couldn’t get separation and our OL under-achieved on run blocking.

He saw these issues. I saw these issues. Professional football pundits saw these issues. Armchair youtube nerds saw these issues. Nearly everyone I know and watched games with saw these issues. And thousands of fans who watched our games have vocalized complaints about many of these issues.

But for some crazy reason, you guys are arguing like it was just the fault of Fromm + poor receiver play + poor OL run blocking and completely dismissing the possibility that Coley’s playbook, play design, game plan, and play calling contributed/exacerbated the poor play of Fromm, the receivers, and the OL.

Well good luck with that. But Kirby clearly disagrees with you.
This post was edited on 1/21/20 at 7:47 am
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