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re: Protests blowing up in Downtown Birmingham
Posted on 6/4/20 at 8:58 am to Robot Santa
Posted on 6/4/20 at 8:58 am to Robot Santa
quote:
ot talking about excuses or justification. There has been a lot of research on the psychological effects authority figures have over people, and it may surprise you to learn that it is incredibly difficult for the vast majority of people to stand up to a person with authority over them. Chauvin had as much experience as the rest of that group combined. There was never much of a chance that any of them would go as far as tackling him and basically putting him under arrest for not doing what they thought he should be doing. All the people sitting behind their computers and talking like they'd have been Billy Badass in that situation and stepped in to save the day are full of shite.
There are some that would stand up, but overall you're exactly right.
An entire nation of highly educated, otherwise morally sound people sat by and watched millions get murdered in modern Europe less than 100 years ago.
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Posted on 6/4/20 at 10:02 am to TideSaint
quote:
All joking aside, I'm glad they charged the three of them. If just one of them had spoken the frick up we wouldn't be in this situation. How hard would it have been to say to let him up?
Those aren't 4 white guys.
They also aren't 4 black guys pounding down on a white dude. Even if you couldn't talk this thug out of it, how hard would it have been for one of those policemen to grab the punk cop by the back of his neck and pull his a$$ off this guy regardless? These policemen are breaking up domestic fights all the time, they knew how dangerous that was. The law of omission is alive and well here.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 10:12 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
Nope, 100% true and it isn't an excuse. Just another thing unions have gotten us. If they had interfered, nothing would have happened to this officer and they likely would have all gotten reprimands.
Nevertheless, George Floyd would still be alive. These guys wouldn't be facing 2nd-degree murder charges. And they can live with their conscience and enjoy their family and continue to do their job as policemen. Not sure how that's not winning?
This post was edited on 6/4/20 at 10:34 am
Posted on 6/4/20 at 10:45 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
Yes there is. They would have been reprimanded, and likely have lost their jobs.
I doubt that given how public this went
Posted on 6/4/20 at 10:47 am to TidalSurge1
quote:
You clearly said reprimands and loss of their jobs would occur and are a valid excuse for those 3 cops to not physically stop another cop from committing a murder. Now you blame their cowardice on their union. Come on man!
No, I'm blaming the policies that lead to these things on the union. You misunderstood.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 10:48 am to bamameister
quote:
Nevertheless, George Floyd would still be alive. These guys wouldn't be facing 2nd-degree murder charges. And they can live with their conscience and enjoy their family and continue to do their job as policemen. Not sure how that's not winning?
None of these three will be convicted of anything close to resembling 2nd degree murder. They're going to have a long road to convicted these three of anything at all. Interfering more than they did would probably have ended worse for them than this inevitably will.
If they agree to testify against Chauvin, the deal they'll get will probably be worse than if they went to trial and saw this out to the end.
This post was edited on 6/4/20 at 10:50 am
Posted on 6/4/20 at 10:50 am to 1BamaRTR
quote:
I doubt that given how public this went
If he didn't died (meaning they interfered further), you'd have never heard of him.
This post was edited on 6/4/20 at 10:51 am
Posted on 6/4/20 at 11:08 am to JustGetItRight
quote:
Money certainly won't solve all the problems but you've got to reach those kids because for the most part you're not changing the parents at home
I don’t agree entirely. I’ve done lots of volunteering in poor schools and often there are parents that would like to do better but cannot. Many single moms work two jobs and aren’t able to influence their kids as much because of that.
I think there are things that could help fix this:
1) Wages have to increase.
2) We need to connect young people without stable families with more good mentors.
3) Wellfare payments should phase out more instead of dropping off a cliff at a certain income.
4) A father who abandons his child should be severely punished.
5) There needs to be a stronger law enforcement presence, ideally through smaller community policing than through city police forces, to ensure that a child can at least feel safe to learn.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 11:19 am to imjustafatkid
quote:
None of these three will be convicted of anything close to resembling 2nd degree murder. They're going to have a long road to convicted these three of anything at all. Interfering more than they did would probably have ended worse for them than this inevitably will.
If they agree to testify against Chauvin, the deal they'll get will probably be worse than if they went to trial and saw this out to the end.
In your clairvoyant argument, is there somehow some justification for these cops to not have done the human thing here?
The fact that we have a broken judicial system is another reason why all these hundreds of thousands of people with mixed ethnicity have taken to the streets. This protest has moved the needle considerably with the speed and severity of these charges. Unprecedented even. So I'll go ahead and practice some future predictions of my own. Something tells me these protesters are going to see this case through the judicial side as well.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 11:45 am to LovetheLord
quote:
There are absolute standards of truth and statistics, study and research can help us to get to it or to confirm what we already know.
True. But most people don't actually research. They just say what someone else said. And the original source could be a crock or if they come to a conclusion, they do not account for any variability nor do they retest. Just stop at what fits their narrative especially if they have an agenda.
And even it They don't have an agenda unconscious biasness is a real problem too
Posted on 6/4/20 at 12:07 pm to JustGetItRight
quote:
Assault doesn't work, because that's the same act that killed him (if you shoot someone and they die you don't get convicted of both assault and murder, just the worse of the two).
Assault is the very felony they've charged him with: assault in the third degree. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6935817-Chauvin-Amended-Criminal-Complaint.html
Posted on 6/4/20 at 12:14 pm to mre
That's what I figured - but they're going to have to say that the assault and the assault that killed him were two different ones. That's were the other officers' testimonies will be important.
I've been a witnesses in a case in Alabama where the defendant was charged with assault and resisting arrest got the assault charge tossed because it was the same fight.
I've been a witnesses in a case in Alabama where the defendant was charged with assault and resisting arrest got the assault charge tossed because it was the same fight.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 12:30 pm to bamameister
quote:
In your clairvoyant argument, is there somehow some justification for these cops to not have done the human thing here?
Their job was to secure the perimeter. His job was to subdue Floyd.
quote:
The fact that we have a broken judicial system
This isn't true.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 12:30 pm to JustGetItRight
quote:
That's what I figured - but they're going to have to say that the assault and the assault that killed him were two different ones. That's were the other officers' testimonies will be important.
In most jurisdictions you would be right. The merger doctrine would *merge* the assault into the murder charge so as to preclude using assault as the predicate felony for a felony murder charge. That's not the case in Minnesota. In Minnesota, "[a]ny felony, not otherwise proscribed, which, as committed, involved special danger to human life, could serve as a predicate felony." State v. Branson, 487 N.W.2d 880, 884 (Mn. 1992). Minnesota only exempts from its felony murder statute a handful of felonies: "criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting." MN Stat. 609.19.
The assault was Chauvin sitting on his neck for 8+ minutes, which was caught on film.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 12:36 pm to mre
That's interesting and as you point out very different than most states. Like I said, I didn't dig into case law.
Anyhow, just to be clear, I'm not defending the officer at all. He did it. I just don't want the prosecution to let a conviction slip between their fingertips - which IMO happened with the Castile case.
Anyhow, just to be clear, I'm not defending the officer at all. He did it. I just don't want the prosecution to let a conviction slip between their fingertips - which IMO happened with the Castile case.
This post was edited on 6/4/20 at 12:37 pm
Posted on 6/4/20 at 12:58 pm to JustGetItRight
No worries. It certainly did not come off as you were defending anyone involved.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 3:45 pm to mre
Posted on 6/4/20 at 3:53 pm to mre
Bunch of damn trouble makers. There has to be some kind of paper trail for whoever is buying those bricks.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 4:06 pm to mre
Sounds like the Birmingham rumor mill is one big game of telephone right now.
Posted on 6/4/20 at 4:29 pm to FairhopeTider
quote:
Sounds like the Birmingham rumor mill is one big game of telephone right now.
Pretty fair description. I'm confident the bricks are real, though. The wife of one of my partners saw CAPS removing a pile of bricks from in front of her office in an area without construction.
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