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Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:09 am to Carlton
Saying Oatis is bouncing, that is one I would add to the Downs, Amos list of hurts to lose.
This post was edited on 1/19/24 at 10:11 am
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:11 am to Tupelo
Gee, apparently my post about complaining vs. constructive criticism in another thread on this board was either poorly read, poorly written or we just can’t help ourselves. Sayin hitting the portal is a huge bummer, there’s no denying that. But man, so many people consequently either went, or stayed, in full melt-mode. In addition to expressions of panic, I've mostly read two comments: 1. Kalen DeBoer can’t recruit and 2. ‘we’ should have hired Kiffin. My response to that would be:
1. There is no way for us to determine whether any of these players would have stayed if Alabama had not hired DeBoer as HC. We just don’t know, because it didn’t happen. Now, if a Smart or Sark had been hired, things probably would’ve been different. But even then neither hire would have negated to influence of NIL money on these transfer decisions. Nonetheless, I’m perfectly willing to concede that hiring Smart or Sark would for sure have limited the amount of transfers. BUT: reality check. Neither guy wanted to come. Would hiring Kiffin have prevented the exodus, just because he’s more of a household name, or a splashier hire and/or a more charismatic guy? I dunno. I think that if Smart or Sark would’ve called with a bag of NIL money, a lot of these players would still have transferred, despite Kiffin’s presence. And I’m not even so sure if Kiffin is a great recruiter.
2. The real question then is whether hiring Kiffin, who seems an inferior coach when compared to DeBoer (based on win-loss record alone), would have been better for Alabama only based on the assumption that he’s a better recruiter than DeBoer. As a coach Kiffin does not seem to be on DeBoer’s level, but would (supposedly) better recruiting enable Kiffin to close the quality gap with DeBoer? Obviously, Greg Byrne and Nick Saban didn’t think so, cause Kiffin apparently was never considered as Bama HC.
Bottom line, for me: only under Saban these transfers would not have happened. But Saban is no longer HCNS. Are these (impending) transfers DeBoer’s fault? No, they are the result of (i) Saban’s retirement, (ii) staff turnover following Saban’s retirement, (iii) negative recruiting following Saban’s retirement and (iv) large sums of NIL-money being offered that we cannot match. Saban was a recruiting superstar. He wasn’t just the GOAT as a coach. He was also the GOAT as a recruiter. Even in the NIL era he was a force to be reckoned with. And we expect his retirement to have no consequences on recruits? How many recruits have cited the chance to play for Saban as one of the biggest reasons for joining Alabama. So, let’s not pin this on Kalen DeBoer.
Recruiting will surely recover once DeBoer’s staff settles in and starts to build relations. I’m excited about DeBoer as a coach as well as about the staff he’s building.
1. There is no way for us to determine whether any of these players would have stayed if Alabama had not hired DeBoer as HC. We just don’t know, because it didn’t happen. Now, if a Smart or Sark had been hired, things probably would’ve been different. But even then neither hire would have negated to influence of NIL money on these transfer decisions. Nonetheless, I’m perfectly willing to concede that hiring Smart or Sark would for sure have limited the amount of transfers. BUT: reality check. Neither guy wanted to come. Would hiring Kiffin have prevented the exodus, just because he’s more of a household name, or a splashier hire and/or a more charismatic guy? I dunno. I think that if Smart or Sark would’ve called with a bag of NIL money, a lot of these players would still have transferred, despite Kiffin’s presence. And I’m not even so sure if Kiffin is a great recruiter.
2. The real question then is whether hiring Kiffin, who seems an inferior coach when compared to DeBoer (based on win-loss record alone), would have been better for Alabama only based on the assumption that he’s a better recruiter than DeBoer. As a coach Kiffin does not seem to be on DeBoer’s level, but would (supposedly) better recruiting enable Kiffin to close the quality gap with DeBoer? Obviously, Greg Byrne and Nick Saban didn’t think so, cause Kiffin apparently was never considered as Bama HC.
Bottom line, for me: only under Saban these transfers would not have happened. But Saban is no longer HCNS. Are these (impending) transfers DeBoer’s fault? No, they are the result of (i) Saban’s retirement, (ii) staff turnover following Saban’s retirement, (iii) negative recruiting following Saban’s retirement and (iv) large sums of NIL-money being offered that we cannot match. Saban was a recruiting superstar. He wasn’t just the GOAT as a coach. He was also the GOAT as a recruiter. Even in the NIL era he was a force to be reckoned with. And we expect his retirement to have no consequences on recruits? How many recruits have cited the chance to play for Saban as one of the biggest reasons for joining Alabama. So, let’s not pin this on Kalen DeBoer.
Recruiting will surely recover once DeBoer’s staff settles in and starts to build relations. I’m excited about DeBoer as a coach as well as about the staff he’s building.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:16 am to RollTideNL
quote:
Recruiting will surely recover once DeBoer’s staff settles in and starts to build relations.
Deboer isn't known to be some great recruiter and judging by how he can't even keep his roster from falling apart we will suck next year so the idea, the mystique, the allure of Alabama will be gone.
At the rate it's going this is going to be an epically bad hire which will see Byrne and others lose their jobs.
This sucks because I'm quite sure if Byrne knew CKD would come in and burn everything to the ground he wouldn't have hired him
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:19 am to YStar
Has Deboer ever been at a program that has the resources UA does to recruit or a program with a history to recruit players like UA does?
Some of you seem to have unrealistic expectations.
Some of you seem to have unrealistic expectations.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:29 am to RollTideNL
quote:
Gee, apparently my post about complaining vs. constructive criticism in another thread on this board was either poorly read, poorly written or we just can’t help ourselves. Sayin hitting the portal is a huge bummer, there’s no denying that. But man, so many people consequently either went, or stayed, in full melt-mode. In addition to expressions of panic, I've mostly read two comments: 1. Kalen DeBoer can’t recruit and 2. ‘we’ should have hired Kiffin. My response to that would be:
Agreed. But some of them don't want to help themselves, and would be complaining if Kiffin or whoever had been hired, also.
This post was edited on 1/19/24 at 10:32 am
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:31 am to YStar
quote:
Deboer isn't known to be some great recruiter and judging by how he can't even keep his roster from falling apart we will suck next year so the idea, the mystique, the allure of Alabama will be gone.
All I'm asking is that you read my post: which other available (!) coach would have prevented these transfers? That is my question. The answer is: very few if any coaches (and probably none that are as good a coach as DeBoer). And that is my point.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:31 am to TideWarrior
quote:
Some of you seem to have unrealistic expectations.
How is it unrealistic to expect a new head coach hire to retain key parts of the staff and players??
People here are coping hard trying to make it about money but it isn't. These kids just don't want to play for this guy. Period
Now magically we don't care about having the best players and we're happy to be out-talented by half the SEC because we have to believe our coach is a genius.
He may be one but his start has been horrendous and if you can't at least be honest about that then you can't be honest with yourself
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:32 am to YStar
The conjectures by the Charmin Brigade is so fricking dumb.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:35 am to RollTideNL
quote:
The answer is: very few if any coaches (and probably none that are as good a coach as DeBoer). And that is my point.
He could have! First call to retain TRob.
People don't understand how optics create a snowball effect which makes these guys start searching for exits.
CKD's first job was to call the key people Saban had to ensure their continuation. Instead he allows Kirby to outdo him, then further adds insult to injury by interviewing a guy Saban already promoted to the position.
We needed to ensure certain coaches were here for at least one more season. Don't have to love them but you have to keep them so you can keep the roster and balance.
I mean FFS Hugh Freeze knew to keep Cadillac and let him go after a year. He wasn't a moron letting the key guy go
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:36 am to UASports23
quote:
The conjectures by the Charmin Brigade is so fricking dumb.
You can't actually address my points so you have to result to insults. Okay.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:42 am to YStar
I just think it is a little early to be this doom and gloom. Obviously things change as more guys enter the portal.
QB Room: You replace Sayin with Mack. We all see Sayin's potential, it hurts, however you still have the same QB room and one guy who is Sayin for this coaching staff.
OLINE: Hopefully better coaching, Proctor leaving hurts but you have a chance to bring in multiple guys from a Joe Moore winning line and the rest of the guys you wanted to keep other than Proctor are staying to this point.
Running Backs: Have the guys you want staying for the moment and starting and Gillespie will do what he does.
WR and TE: Wiggins had run his course. We will see more diversity in the receiving core concerning size and ability. I like Bond but I just don't think it matters and you can rebuild a WR core in one recruiting cycle. I love Hale and Law. Prentice may reimerge, we may bring a few guys in. This is an area I'm excited about. If they can get Williams (I know, I know) things could be pretty spectacular. TE might get better production out of the don't know, we were always hit or miss with them recently anyway.
Dline: Hate lose Oatis. Still overall I think we are solid. Roach will recruit. We may get a chance to add some depth in the portal.
LBs: Coaching, coaching, coaching. Don't know how good or bad we are here. I think we have enough guys.
DBs: Area of Concern especially with experience. Don't know how good the coaching will be. I do know there is still 4 and 5 star talent back there although we need some more bodies.
Again I think our roster is still quality without even us getting an opportunity to shape what we have lost due to the portal. We will see who else leaves, but I think if the coaching is what we expect it is I am very excited. Then the second question becomes the recruiting which is a big question mark.
QB Room: You replace Sayin with Mack. We all see Sayin's potential, it hurts, however you still have the same QB room and one guy who is Sayin for this coaching staff.
OLINE: Hopefully better coaching, Proctor leaving hurts but you have a chance to bring in multiple guys from a Joe Moore winning line and the rest of the guys you wanted to keep other than Proctor are staying to this point.
Running Backs: Have the guys you want staying for the moment and starting and Gillespie will do what he does.
WR and TE: Wiggins had run his course. We will see more diversity in the receiving core concerning size and ability. I like Bond but I just don't think it matters and you can rebuild a WR core in one recruiting cycle. I love Hale and Law. Prentice may reimerge, we may bring a few guys in. This is an area I'm excited about. If they can get Williams (I know, I know) things could be pretty spectacular. TE might get better production out of the don't know, we were always hit or miss with them recently anyway.
Dline: Hate lose Oatis. Still overall I think we are solid. Roach will recruit. We may get a chance to add some depth in the portal.
LBs: Coaching, coaching, coaching. Don't know how good or bad we are here. I think we have enough guys.
DBs: Area of Concern especially with experience. Don't know how good the coaching will be. I do know there is still 4 and 5 star talent back there although we need some more bodies.
Again I think our roster is still quality without even us getting an opportunity to shape what we have lost due to the portal. We will see who else leaves, but I think if the coaching is what we expect it is I am very excited. Then the second question becomes the recruiting which is a big question mark.
This post was edited on 1/19/24 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 1/19/24 at 10:55 am to YStar
quote:
He could have! First call to retain TRob.
I don't have first hand knowledge of whom DeBoer did and did not call. The optics of coach T-Rob being hired away and DeBoer then talking with him afterwards aren't great.
However, my understanding of T-Rob's situation was that he wanted to become DC for Alabama or otherwise he'd leave (presumably for the Barn's DC position). Perhaps that was DeBoer's assumption as well. After T-Rob accepted a position as Uga's CO (not sole) DC, maybe DeBoer thought: 'I can offer him a co-DC position as well, so why don't I give him a call. It's a longshot cause I want to hire 2 coaches for the secondary (CB's and safeties) not one, but let's give it a shot.' But T-Rob wouldn't have it.
That's how I think it played out. As for T-Rob's qualities as a DC, I've read on this board that his track record isn't great. So, if retaining him had meant we'd have to hire him as our next DC, then I'm glad he moved on.
This post was edited on 1/19/24 at 10:58 am
Posted on 1/19/24 at 11:16 am to YStar
My realistic expectation was that this would basically happen. That no matter who was hired, could less where they were from, we would we players leave in the new free agent market and that a new HC would want his guys on his staff.
There is not another coach anyone can say with confidence could do any better. Only their opinion. Southern ties had nothing to with Saying leaving and now possibly going closer to home at USC.
Our program for several now has been getting outperformed by rival programs. Even with the GOAT it ws time for change. Jo yes I will embrace the change and ride with it like I have every other change since the 70's and hope it will work out. But I will give a chance instead of melting about something out of my control. Not all this was directed at you.
There is not another coach anyone can say with confidence could do any better. Only their opinion. Southern ties had nothing to with Saying leaving and now possibly going closer to home at USC.
Our program for several now has been getting outperformed by rival programs. Even with the GOAT it ws time for change. Jo yes I will embrace the change and ride with it like I have every other change since the 70's and hope it will work out. But I will give a chance instead of melting about something out of my control. Not all this was directed at you.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 11:34 am to YStar
quote:
quote:
Some of you seem to have unrealistic expectations.
How is it unrealistic to expect a new head coach hire to retain key parts of the staff and players??
People here are coping hard trying to make it about money but it isn't. These kids just don't want to play for this guy. Period
Now magically we don't care about having the best players and we're happy to be out-talented by half the SEC because we have to believe our coach is a genius.
He may be one but his start has been horrendous and if you can't at least be honest about that then you can't be honest with yourself
He did retain key parts of the staff, Roach and Gillespie were retained (you'd have called them key if they had left, wouldn't you). He tried to retain TRob, and he did so promptly. No one knows why TRob didn't stay, but it's rumored that TRob demanded complete control of the defense, very few competent HCs are going to allow that. He also retained Ballou as S&C, and Jeff Allen, both are key parts. As far as retaining players, he made every effort to do that also. Naturally, money was a major factor in players leaving. Only a delusional person would think otherwise. Bond reportedly got $750,000 and a freaking Lamborghini. The figure being rumored for Downs is $2,000,000. Whether those figures are true or not, you have no idea why they actually left, much less that they left to avoid playing for DeBoer. Saban leaving with the NIL and Portal rules being as they are was always going to be horrendous. We had more 5 stars on our roster than the entire Big10, ripe for the picking. Naturally, it would be advantageous for us to have better talent than not, but if we're honest, that talent hasn't been utilized to close to its maximum potential lately, anyway. We just need to weather the storm, and let the new coaches have a chance.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 11:39 am to YStar
quote:
CKD's first job was to call the key people Saban had to ensure their continuation
Can you imagine Mal Moore telling Nick Saban this when he took the job? "Now Nick, we need to keep all of these assistants already on staff so we can keep continuity. Don't go firing and hiring who you want." He would STILL be in Miami.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 11:45 am to YStar
quote:
You can't actually address my points so you have to result to insults. Okay.
Happy to address any points not based on conjectures. Up to this point, a lot of your arguments are assumptions.
If you get insulted because I call out the conjectures and your melting over Alabama Football then I would make the argument that......Yes, you are indeed....
This post was edited on 1/19/24 at 11:57 am
Posted on 1/19/24 at 11:53 am to YStar
Kids wanted to play for Saban. The greatest college football coach of all time. They didn't come for Bama. They came for Saban. He left and now they have a chance to go chase the money. That is what is happening. What happened to Oklahoma when Lincoln Riley left? Mass exodus. It happens. Stop blaming DeBeor and acting like this wouldn't happen at any big school when an all-time great coach retires.
Posted on 1/19/24 at 11:55 am to jjv0004
Are we under the 85 yet at least? Lol
Posted on 1/19/24 at 12:03 pm to artompkins
I'm ready for all Hell to break loose on 14 April. It goes both ways. There will be a lot of talent out there to grab for the fall.
We will see additional chaos before then especially if Harbaugh bounces.
We will see additional chaos before then especially if Harbaugh bounces.
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